When 'allies of feminism' turn out to be...not

[explodingkittens]

I mainly lurk on the feminism boards and have learned so much, but I really felt the need to post and try to get my head around this issue. I don't want to give too many details as I know the person concerned is an MNer but I just need to know if I'm being ridiculous, I suppose.

I have a male friend who I have always believed I was close to. We have known each other for several years and I honestly believed that he was an 'ally'. We both work in an area where respect for, championing of even, women's rights and women's voices is fundamental. He has always been very vocal about this but also committed (I thought) to 'walking the walk' as well as just shouting about it.

We differ on many aspects of feminism - most recently the whole trans thing (I'm supposedly a TERF, he's all about the 'trans women are women' shit) and our discussions about it have been fierce at times. But that's what I have enjoyed about our friendship, we differ, we argue, but I felt that we always met as equals. I also need to say that he has been incredibly supportive of some horrible personal stuff I've had over the last year - he has been a rock.

But a couple of days ago we had a 'discussion' (about something to do with work) and the outcome is that I seriously now doubt that he is any kind of ally at all, and it's thrown me for a loop. If this man doesn't believe that women are truly equal and that their voices are important, then who the fuck does?

I won't go into detail but basically I pulled him up on something ridiculously mansplainly and patronising he said (and actually said that I was pissed off about it), and his reaction - to ignore, shut down and then belittle - has genuinely smacked my gob. He has ignored me since.

It has left me wondering if Germaine was right all along, and women genuinely don't have any idea of how much men hate them. I realise that might sound like an overreaction but I feel like the scales have fallen, and it's not a pretty sight.

I feel equally gutted and furious. Someone tell me I'm making too much of this, please?

I think it's hard to say without detail.

I had a close male friend who I believe supported me and saw me as an equal when we were younger, unfortunately over the years it's become obvious he does not see all women as equal and will put some on a pedestal and others are to serve needs or be ignored.

Losing that friendship was tough, but when you've seen who someone really is there's no going back.

I know, I'm sorry, I just don't want to out myself (although I probably already have)

It was just his reaction. To shut me down, to ignore, and then to belittle, because I said 'that comment you made pissed me off'. Where 5 minutes earlier he'd been telling me how important it is that a woman's strength is celebrated.

I feel like a fucking idiot.

Some men hate women, some women hate men. Men, being stronger, have greater scope in which to manifest that hate. Anyone old enough to go through the feminist sex wars (the more modern version being transgender politics) knows that there has always been huge disagreement within feminism about what it legitimately is and should be. Men need have no role at all in that discourse .

Germaine, who (if my memory serves) famously back in the day suggested that newly married men should have a broom handle shoved up their arse so they properly understood PIV, staked her territory on where she stood on what feminism meant/should mean. What I see, mostly, is that some women hate men, some men hate women, but overall most are basically decent people not fully aware of the lived reality of the other gender.

I think some men change for the worse as they get older and more important at work. They get so used to being deferred to by people 'beneath' them and then they get all irritated when the women around them don't defer.

Don't feel like an idiot. The socially adept hide their true beliefs and feelings to buy acquiescence. They are better at camouflage than honesty.

A lot of men who consider themselves allies get very angry if they're called out on sexism.

So, what you're saying Dad is, NAMALT so not to worry, eh? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Jiggly, I agree.

I might be derailing a bit but I feel the same about a lot of my male friends. Am I the only one who feels that men who get off on debasing porn aren't really on side at all? I might be. I know that perhaps is not a popular view.

This is why I don't think men can ever actually be feminists. It's impossible to live the experience of the other sex. It's impossible not to live the experience of your own sex.

I have had arguments and shouted and attempted to shut down the discourse, using the tools at my disposal. I'm only human. But when you do it with a man, your measly screwdriver flails in the face of their huge power drill.

Were you annoyed at his lack of understanding? Or his chosen tactics to 'win'?

If he said yes, I understand what you mean, I just disagree, calmly. Would the context of your disagreement still feel as though he didn't understand feminism?

Or was it him utilising his maleness that nailed it for you?

This is why I don't think men can ever actually be feminists. It's impossible to live the experience of the other sex. It's impossible not to live the experience of your own sex.

I have had arguments and shouted and attempted to shut down the discourse, using the tools at my disposal. I'm only human. But when you do it with a man, your measly screwdriver flails in the face of their huge power drill.

Were you annoyed at his lack of understanding? Or his chosen tactics to 'win'?

If he said yes, I understand what you mean, I just disagree, calmly. Would the context of your disagreement still feel as though he didn't understand feminism?

Or was it him utilising his maleness that nailed it for you?

The latter, definitely. The context of the argument wasn't really anything to do with feminism per se - it was about how it was done. And the hypocrisy of it.

We've argued many times, we 'debate', it's what we do. But this was different. And horrible.

My experience is that men who consider themselves allies are no less sexist than those who don't. The same man can be supportive of women or undermining at other times.
Something that no male can ever undo is the sense of entitlement he was conditioned into in a sexist world that has been artificially wrought in his favour. This skewing is everywhere and almost completely invisible to him. He can meaningfully try to examine it, but it will always be second-hand knowledge -like reading from a book written by a woman or being told by a woman.
If I, as a woman, read Andrea Dworkin, I have a sense of seeing down a tunnel into my own past, my own being and experiences. If a man reads the same book, he will need to use the effort of imagination and try to relate to it as best he can, because it doesn't describe his experiences, but women's experiences i.e the other sex who he indirectly (or directly) benefits from the subjugation of.

So the long and short of it is, that a man can try his best to be as understanding and knowledgeable as he can, but will always have blind spots. He is only human and can't magic away his whole life's expeiences and how they inform his beliefs and experiences. It is expecting too much to think that he can.
Sometimes the best allies are the ones who think feminism is something to let women get on with (while giving money, helping to free women of domestic responsibilities that restrict us and taking the odd rap for being sexist with humility).

My question to you OP is this: Why did you need to believe a true male ally exists? Do you have an inherent misogynistic belief that we women need male allies in feminism in order to validate feminism? In other words, do you think feminism needs the male stamp of approval?

Sorry I meant to say:

He is only human and can't magic away his whole life's expeiences and how they inform his beliefs and behaviours. It is expecting too much to think that he can.

I think that men make the choice to treat women as equal. They don't do it because they actually believe them to be equal. Which leads to equal treatment when men put conscious effort or learned experience into it but when they have no experience to fall back on, we see the genuine underlying belief that women are somehow lesser or have set roles.

I know a lot of lovely men who listen and who examine their own views and modify their behaviour. The fact that the behaviour needs to modified in the first place says a lot. As an example, they genuinely believe that they parent equallly, that they have chosen to take more paternity leave, more of a role but the reality when we discuss it highlights that they feel they have done something good by choosing to be a more involved parent. They don't get that women don't make that choice at all. They are more involved, not because there is a genuinely held belief that it is their role/duty/instinct whatever but because it is a learned behaviour and one that they benefit from. Scratch the surface and there remains an instinctive sense that caring is a woman's role.

I think it is so ingrained that many women also struggle to see the inherent inequality that exists. When the world is a violent, unequal place, taking comfort in being protected or looked after is entirely logical even when its results in a selfish insularity.

I don't believe it stems from a hatred of women for the majority but simply from how we live our lives. While history continues to be written from a male perspective, laws continue to be written and enforced by men, countries governed by men, and while men continue to be violent, men will always struggle to go against their unconscious bias that society reinforces.

And I'm not man blaming as I think, particularly for white men, that it is so difficult to be aware of the bias they hold. If you have never been subjected to any form of structural, institutional discrimination, it can be difficult to see it for what it is. White men only really experience it if disabled or in the depths of poverty, they never experience it just for their sex.

So no, I don't think men can ever be feminists and the sheer amount of work needed all of the time, in all circumstances, to be a true ally, are beyond most men and sadly even many women.

(Unfortunately?) A lot of feminism revolves around talking about the "failings" of men.
Male violence, patriarchy, rape, men don't get pregnant, men are oppressors...
It winds men up.
No human wants to recognise their compliance in oppressing another group, men and women alike. (Lots of women are complicit in 3rd word oppression etc etc).

So it is this knee jerk emotional reaction -

"No I'm not like that! Not me, I love women. All women" that makes it impossible for men to be feminists and very very hard for men to be feminist allies.

I've given up discussing with my beloved DP who doesn't even believe we live under patriarchy. "Look. Theresa May". Eyeroll.

Anyway, without specific details regarding your debate, I'm only sorry you've realised how impossible it is for men to be feminist.

Many "allies" are anything but when you strip away the social niceties. All is well whilst you perform femininity for them. Call them out though or prove them wrong and the true attitudes are revealed

Wolves in sheep clothing. Germaine was right.

Do men even need to be feminists? Or even allies? If feminism is a think tank that produces philosophical insight into what women want out of society, then produces positions on various issues. Men can engage and support on an issue by issue basis. Same with civil rights issues.

I have knack all idea what it's like to be a woman, or black, or Asian, or gay etc. However I can understand individual issues like reproductive rights, pay gaps etc and try to come down on the right side of history.

I know I've been the guy the OP described in conversations with female mates. All we can do is reflect, apologise and try to do better next time. Note you don't have to accept any apology either.

Hmm I don't know, you were having a debate you said something he said pissed you off his response was to shut you down.
It might be because you are a woman it might be because you were debating and it seems to have turned into an argument

Depends on what he said really.

Most people want to think of themselves as one of the "good guys", and for feminist-sympathising men that can only be sustained by a certain amount of denial about their own privelige.

Been in this same situation a number of times. My feeling is that many men like the adulation of feminist women, but that rather than being 'genuine' they are (deep down) really thinking they are doing us a favour by treating us as equals and/or being magnanimous. I've seen others talk the talk until the time comes for them to really put their necks on the line alongside women, and then the sexism kicks in. Others start whining when real EO or affirmative action is implemented and they realise that their position at the top is threatened. I'm not sure that all men hate women, but I am also not sure that most really think we are 'equal' and/or don't owe them a service in some way.

Indeed I'm a feminist-sympathising man and still I wrote "their own privilege" and not "our own privilege", because of course it applies to those other men and not me.

because of course it applies to those other men and not me

I know a lot of lovely men who listen and who examine their own views and modify their behaviour. The fact that the behaviour needs to modified in the first place says a lot. As an example, they genuinely believe that they parent equallly, that they have chosen to take more paternity leave, more of a role but the reality when we discuss it highlights that they feel they have done something good by choosing to be a more involved parent. They don't get that women don't make that choice at all.

This. I recently read a book by two men, which mentioned the demands on your time that "babysitting" had. It was mentioned next to job, etc., so was clear what was meant was your own children.
So the two men acknowledged that their readers would be busy parenting, but worded it this way, as though it is optional.

In other words, do you think feminism needs the male stamp of approval?

I sure hope not!

We'd never get anything done if we waited for that !

I think there might be a difference between a man proclaiming he is a feminist and wanting to be part of that part of feminism that is about intellectual development of theory / practice or about the practice of activism, and that which is more about living a good life as a feminist ally, including living feminist ideals / ideals of equality in the public and private spheres. So, rather than men declaring they are 'one of us', I'd prefer that they weren't sexist men, if that makes sense?