When 'allies of feminism' turn out to be...not

[explodingkittens]

I mainly lurk on the feminism boards and have learned so much, but I really felt the need to post and try to get my head around this issue. I don't want to give too many details as I know the person concerned is an MNer but I just need to know if I'm being ridiculous, I suppose.

I have a male friend who I have always believed I was close to. We have known each other for several years and I honestly believed that he was an 'ally'. We both work in an area where respect for, championing of even, women's rights and women's voices is fundamental. He has always been very vocal about this but also committed (I thought) to 'walking the walk' as well as just shouting about it.

We differ on many aspects of feminism - most recently the whole trans thing (I'm supposedly a TERF, he's all about the 'trans women are women' shit) and our discussions about it have been fierce at times. But that's what I have enjoyed about our friendship, we differ, we argue, but I felt that we always met as equals. I also need to say that he has been incredibly supportive of some horrible personal stuff I've had over the last year - he has been a rock.

But a couple of days ago we had a 'discussion' (about something to do with work) and the outcome is that I seriously now doubt that he is any kind of ally at all, and it's thrown me for a loop. If this man doesn't believe that women are truly equal and that their voices are important, then who the fuck does?

I won't go into detail but basically I pulled him up on something ridiculously mansplainly and patronising he said (and actually said that I was pissed off about it), and his reaction - to ignore, shut down and then belittle - has genuinely smacked my gob. He has ignored me since.

It has left me wondering if Germaine was right all along, and women genuinely don't have any idea of how much men hate them. I realise that might sound like an overreaction but I feel like the scales have fallen, and it's not a pretty sight.

I feel equally gutted and furious. Someone tell me I'm making too much of this, please?

afab' and 'amab' alike

Oh go on. Save me googling and explain these ...

Assigned female at birth/assigned male at birth.

I am automatically suspicious of men who make a show of being feminists. It's all about actions. My DH was a SAHD and my DF is outspoken in his conviction that women are the superior sex. Neither of them go on about feminism.

Actions are what matter, OP, as your friend has shown you, sadly.

oh thanks. obvs really @@. Must be braindead today.

kittens
I think you need to have a resolve to not appoach him, but have your mouth poised in readiness when he approaches you to say something along the lines of "are you here to apologise?"

If he wholeheartedly apologises on the spot and shows that he really understands what a prick he was being then say. "Thank you for your apology, but you now have to realise that in the back of my mind I will always be suspicious of your intent".. and move on, accepting that he is an ordinary bloke with a pompous notion of his status as an ally.
If he doesn't apologise. Then say "I'm afraid I can't continue speaking with you as is cannot be productive" and walk away.
No apology = NO FRIENDSHIP.

It's another example of transactivists appropriating language, this time from intersex conditions. And the very, very angry transactivists prefer "FAMAB" - forcibly assigned male at birth.

Blistory

But as someone on another site said, what if a man was assigned female at birth? He'd still have to go through all the hormones and surgery.

Honestly. I've never known such a bunch of Machiavellian people.

They have no idea about womanhood or feminist discourse.

So early on when women started pointing it out, the following week they've got a counter-argument. All invented as a means to dispute everything as it comes up.

First of all it female reproductive organs. Cue, what about women born without!

Then it was chromosomes. Cue invoking intersex. And fish.

Next came women's oppression through gender stereotyping. Cue TW suffering the same gender stereotyping, but with extra helpings of oppression.

Then it was socialisation. Cue being forced against their innate nature to be socialised as 'other' from birth (the start point just got younger and younger). And their innate sense of female making them impervious anyway.

Honestly if only they used their powers for good instead of fucking over women.

Datun, the female oppression plus transphobia bit makes me laugh because really it's got to be one or the other, hasn't it? If you pass (which virtually none do) you'd only suffer misogyny and if you don't pass you'd only suffer transphobia. You can't have it both ways!

I have seen male friends and friends of friends argue in various places that they don't have male privilege like other men*

Sorry but when I hear men say this all I hear is "why don't I have what other men have? Poor me."

It's the feminist analysis which will win this in the end. Well, should win it.

I've seen TW say women are oppressed because they are women not because of their biology. They were talking about natal women.

When asked why do they think they were oppressed, they just repeated because they're women... its got nothing to do with their biology.

I've seen someone talk about class analysis and the transwomen reply I can't believe you're bringing this down to snobbery because some people have a better accent.

I am at the point now where I will not discuss feminism with male friends because hearing what men really think of women, straight from the mouths of supposed friends, is too upsetting. I talk to DH about it a little bit but that's only because he has genuinely taken a long difficult look at his own attitudes and he just listens. When he does speak about issues he still gets it wrong sometimes - despite what I would consider to be an extraordinarily high level of enlightenment he still struggles to overcome the urge to tell me how I feel. He still sees men as the default.

The only thing I can say in men's defence is that I have seen men realise very clearly realise their own misogyny and it's very hard for them to accept that - it damages their self image as a 'good guy,' so they go on the defensive and act like dicks. It's disappointing but understandable to an extent. They really believe that sexism is this small issue caused by other men. When they realise they are as much part of the problem as anyone it's very hard to accept.

My DH told me the other day he doesn't think he can call himself a feminist because he's a man .

I'm in a bit of disfavour at work for suggesting a male colleagues habit of interrupting/ignoring/discounting/talking over anything a woman says could be sue to unconscious bias against women. Apparently suggesting sexism is very serious and needs to be proven before action taken
It feels like another way to silence women, if we can't even suggest something might be sexism....

Exactly Quentin - with the vast majority of men, you realise their misogyny as soon as they open their mouths when these issues arise. Straight away they want 'proof,' they dismiss what you say. And they can't see that the very act of dismissing you is the height of misogyny - taking away someone's opportunity to express themselves and be heard is the most disempowering and belittling thing.

I do get some satisfaction when men claim I'm 'overreacting' to, say, catcalling and I then point out how hey up they get at the mere suggestion of sexism. So I'm supposed to accept disgusting remarks on the street but they can't handle a calm discussion? Funny how men's feelings are so Real and Important while women's feelings are always a hysterical overreaction eh?

And they can't see that the very act of dismissing you is the height of misogyny - taking away someone's opportunity to express themselves and be heard is the most disempowering and belittling thing.

This.

It's bloody exhausting to not only have to argue a position but also to have to argue for and justify your right to even have a position in the first place.

A position that doesn't exactly match the default (ie male) position.

I am at the point now where I will not discuss feminism with male friends because hearing what men really think of women, straight from the mouths of supposed friends, is too upsetting.

Are they really friends in that case, or rather acquaintances?

(Yes, I don't have many friends. Most people just don't meet the requirements.)

Tough to answer. I had male friends in the past but those friendships came to an end when it became clear how they viewed me. The men I engage with now, apart from DH, are more acquaintances

TBH I feel this sense of disappointment with Barack Obama and Justin Trudeau - I thought that they were powerful feminist allies, but no...

Joe Biden is my new favourite North American male politician

Oleana - I know where you're coming from on that one. I remember seeing an interview just after Trump's election, with one of the women who worked on AHCA - it was eye opening. She was talking about how Obama was quite prepared to compromise on the issue of mandatory funding for contraception - basically throw women's healthcare needs under the bus in the interests of politically expedient compromise with the Republicans - until the women in his team kicked off and said "you can't do that". And I've long suspected Trudeau talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk on a whole range of issues - women's rights, the "disappeared" first nation women, the environment (as an aside, I've always been deeply suspicious about attractive men who know they're attractive and use that attractiveness to further their ambition - just sets all sorts of alarm bells ringing, but maybe that's my issue rather than theirs).

Also, Obama supported the transactivists on the bathroom bill issue

Yep Trudeau is also a massive trans ally too - his environmental record is majorly shaky too.