When 'allies of feminism' turn out to be...not

[explodingkittens]

I mainly lurk on the feminism boards and have learned so much, but I really felt the need to post and try to get my head around this issue. I don't want to give too many details as I know the person concerned is an MNer but I just need to know if I'm being ridiculous, I suppose.

I have a male friend who I have always believed I was close to. We have known each other for several years and I honestly believed that he was an 'ally'. We both work in an area where respect for, championing of even, women's rights and women's voices is fundamental. He has always been very vocal about this but also committed (I thought) to 'walking the walk' as well as just shouting about it.

We differ on many aspects of feminism - most recently the whole trans thing (I'm supposedly a TERF, he's all about the 'trans women are women' shit) and our discussions about it have been fierce at times. But that's what I have enjoyed about our friendship, we differ, we argue, but I felt that we always met as equals. I also need to say that he has been incredibly supportive of some horrible personal stuff I've had over the last year - he has been a rock.

But a couple of days ago we had a 'discussion' (about something to do with work) and the outcome is that I seriously now doubt that he is any kind of ally at all, and it's thrown me for a loop. If this man doesn't believe that women are truly equal and that their voices are important, then who the fuck does?

I won't go into detail but basically I pulled him up on something ridiculously mansplainly and patronising he said (and actually said that I was pissed off about it), and his reaction - to ignore, shut down and then belittle - has genuinely smacked my gob. He has ignored me since.

It has left me wondering if Germaine was right all along, and women genuinely don't have any idea of how much men hate them. I realise that might sound like an overreaction but I feel like the scales have fallen, and it's not a pretty sight.

I feel equally gutted and furious. Someone tell me I'm making too much of this, please?

We'd never get anything done if we waited for that!
Indeed Vestal ... but there are an awful lot of women sitting in the patriarchal nest, waiting for a male to 'fledge' first into feminism before they dare to.

Totally with you Spartacus.

So, rather than men declaring they are 'one of us', I'd prefer that they weren't sexist men, if that makes sense?

Perfect sense.

Actions speak louder than words. Men can say a lot of stuff, in the end, what matters is what they do.

One male doctor who performs safe abortions for his countrywomen in the border region of Germany and never goes to a feminist meeting is worth more than a dozen of male university students who wear "I'm a feminist" t-shirts and explain to women how "problematic" it is to talk of "biologically male bodies".

Guardian, interesting point and one that I have considered. I don't think it's true in this case, however. I don't actually believe that men can be feminists, hence my use of the word 'ally'. I reject men's naming of themselves as feminists just as I reject the naming of trans women as women, and I definitely don't think I'm sitting around waiting for a man's validation of any aspect of my life

I guess I'm just experiencing a tired and fed-up feeling of 'oh god, really? Even you?' And anger. I'm fucking angry. And tired. Did I mention tired?

And, he's a friend, and I thought I knew him, and it turns out I really, really don't. And he doesn't respect me at all, clearly. So that's sad.

Agree totally vestal. Totally.

Dervel, there's been no apology whatsoever, not even an acknowledgement and that is the thing that's really boiled my piss. We're supposed to be friends, in the end. If a friend tells you that something you said upset them, you apologise, surely - even if you think they're overreacting or whatever.

But, no. Because I challenged him.

And, he's a friend, and I thought I knew him, and it turns out I really, really don't. And he doesn't respect me at all, clearly. So that's sad.

Yeah. And I think it hurts more when a man does this.

If a female friend turns out to not be a feminist, then at least she doesn't hate you more than she hates herself.

But finding out that someone you considered a friend thinks he's better than you, that's bitter.

And, he's a friend, and I thought I knew him, and it turns out I really, really don't. And he doesn't respect me at all, clearly. So that's sad.

The idea of men as feminists or 'allies' is laughable. He is not your friend and he is not your ally. I'm really sorry OP, it's a tough lesson to learn but it's going to make you stronger.

Absolutely Vestal
I can appreciate that there are men who detest the thought of inequality and the oppression of women, and who desperately don't want to be one of the bad guys or part of the problem.
But as you say the real allies of women think and ask "what can I do?", "How can I use my position of male privilege to help?". It might be training as an abortionist or deliberately offering a woman the same salary as a man even though she didn't try to negotiate for it.
The worst thing they can do is expect feminists to fashion them a special 'good guy' medal they can wear to prove their special status. A man will always slip up and act like a sexist nob at some points, and they are so much more helpful if they can admit it and try to do better, than to be so brittle that their whole self-perception is threatened when their unintentional sexism is pointed out.

I definitely don't think I'm sitting around waiting for a man's validation of any aspect of my life
Glad to hear it kittens

I guess I'm just experiencing a tired and fed-up feeling of 'oh god, really? Even you?'

Yup pretty depressing. Maybe if you lower your expectations a bit it will be a relief- I don't know - it can be overwhelming to contemplate the magnitude of all-pervasive misogyny.

And I completely concur with Vestal here:
If a female friend turns out to not be a feminist, then at least she doesn't hate you more than she hates herself.

But finding out that someone you considered a friend thinks he's better than you, that's bitter.

Great thread. Exploding, I had a similar experience recently with a male friend. He's very educated and an advocate of the usual liberal causes, sees himself as a feminist. But in an exchange about transactivism (he'd linked to a Riley J Dennis video and I called him on it) it was like he ripped off his mask and revealed the most rank misogyny, arrogance and male privilege. Patronised me about female safety and male violence, ignored every point I made, accused me of bigotry, dismissed the statistics on the global oppression of women and just generally was a massive arsehole. I can't really see him as a friend anymore.

In my experience, as a pp said, the best men tend to be the ones who just live their ally-dom and solidarity with women rather than the ones who bleat about it a lot. I know this sounds like one of those "all men are rubbish except mine" kinda posts, but my dh is a good example of the former kind. He's a big hairy football-mad bloke who has not read Simone de Beauvoir. But his 70s feminist mother brought him up to see men and women sharing housework, childcare and wage-earning as normal, he just gets on with it. He accepts that men are privileged in ways they don't realise, he listens when I call him out on things. But if he were to start calling himself a feminist I think I'd find it a bit weird and intrusive to be honest.

God I desperately want to tell you what we do for a living but it's just too outing

So, what do I do? Do I contact him and say, y'know what, this has really pissed me off and I want to talk about it? Or nothing? Going 'back to normal' will feel wrong.

Agree about the all-pervasive misogyny. So depressing and fucking EXHAUSTING.

cuir, this friend and I have had exactly the same exchange re: transactivism. Exactly the same. He calls me cis even though I've said I loathe it.

Paris Lees is amazing, apparently

So, what do I do? Do I contact him and say, y'know what, this has really pissed me off and I want to talk about it? Or nothing? Going 'back to normal' will feel wrong.

I wouldn't contact him. If you can just ignore him, do that. Do you work with him, or is there any other reason why you'd have to see him regularly?

He's the one who should apologize. As long as he doesn't do so, any further interaction is only going to hurt you more.

So, what do I do? Do I contact him and say, y'know what, this has really pissed me off and I want to talk about it? Or nothing? Going 'back to normal' will feel wrong

Don't do anything. Emotional labour is so women's work. Let him figure it out. Or not.

TBH - he sounds like a bit of a dick to me.

Yeah don't let him away with it. Or link him to some Magdalen Berns videos. I like healthy debate, I have friends across the political spectrum and I don't usually take things personally. But dismissing my entire lived experience as a woman (and that of all women) in favour of some man-led dangerous cult that's new and trendy? Fuck that IS personal.

I wouldn't do anything either. You're still hoping to appeal to the better nature that you thought he had hence your desire to discuss and resolve this.

Thing is, he's proven that it was all really just lip service and not a genuinely held belief so you owe the fake feminist nothing in terms of your time and experience.

Be prepared to be considered unreasonable by others. Nothing proves your rabid, man hating, bollox busting feminism more than a woman who refuses to listen and support a self proclaimed feminist man.

Ah yes Paris Lees' great writing on universal female experiences like enjoying being groped on public transport and getting gangbanged by strangers on a night of "cruising" - it's uncanny, like "she's" me!!

explodingkittens

God, you and he aren't in the business of equality, are you?

Datun, no, not directly. But our business makes it ludicrous to try to argue that people-with-penises are actually women, for example. That doesn't stop some of my colleagues ('afab' and 'amab' alike) attempting to do so...

Anyway, tmi

My iPad just changed 'amab' to 'a man'.

Seems Apple hasn't quite caught up with current transactivist issues

explodingkittens

Bloody curious now!

Anyway, I'm of the opinion of previous posters who say it's pointless to re-engage.

But I do understand how that is hard because previously you have had such a good relationship.

It's difficult let's go, especially as it would always feel like a scab you want to pick in order to heal the relationship and get it back on its old footing of mutual trust.

Sounds like some kind of area of female healthcare but I understand you can't say!

enjoying being groped on public transport and getting gangbanged by strangers on a night of "cruising" - it's uncanny, like "she's" me!!