How can I reconnect with feminism?

[Chemicalromance]

Sorry for any mistakes-this is my first thread and I'm using the app

Im in my very early twenties, and I really struggle to connect with the feminist movement. I'm absolutely pro-equality and ensuring the global rights for women, but my experiences have left me feeling uncomfortable about calling myself a "feminist".

When I was at school, women's issues and feminism were never discussed, so my first awareness of the movement came from websites like Tumblr and EverydaySexism. These websites were quite radical, and I struggled to identify with issues such as 'man spreading', 'mansplaining' and the general man-hating subculture that seemed to be present. It felt to me like a group of quite privileged, fortunate western women looking for reasons to complain despite there being so many serious women's issues to deal with around the world, and there was a lot of talk about the western world supporting "rape culture", which I don't believe to be true, so I grew up feeing like feminism wasn't for me.

When I got to university, I attempted to get involved in the feminism society, but found that most of the events/talks centred around 'trans liberation', 'micro aggressions' and trigger warnings/banning topics or events that might be triggering. When an infamous male misogynist was scheduled to have a talk at the university, I was excited at the opportunity it would open for a real debate on gender and equality, but the feminist society held a rally and protest that ended up causing the visit to be cancelled, which I felt was a waste of a good opportunity and probably not a great move in terms of free speech. I eventually left the society when I was openly mocked at an event about future ambitions for saying that I would like to be a young mother. Over time, I completely stopped calling myself a feminist or having anything to do with the feminist movement.

Recently, I've discovered Hannah Witton's youtube channel, and although I don't agree with everything she says, I have found her videos talking about sex, relationships, women's bodies and what it means to be a woman to be really interesting and encouraging. I've been inspired to read more books and interact with more information about feminism and women's issues, and I really want to start reconnecting with my own female identity and feeling proud to be a woman again.

The only problem is that I really don't know where to start. Can anyone recommend some influential women, works or materials that I can look into, or tell me some of the things that make them proud of being a woman and a feminist?

I think most of us on here are all in favour of destroying "gender" full stop.

I'm not convinced.

I don't think women are ready to stop being 'women' - and men are not able to suddenly stop being 'men'.

That'll take hundreds of years. It's only just begun.

Someone on one of these threads was saying that for too long women had been defined by patriarchy, and once patriarchy is overcome they will be able to discover who they truly are. But there is nothing to discover. There is no true womanhood beneath the social construction. We're just people living in a society that tells us we're lesser.

The goal is surely to jettison womanhood and manhood - so that we're all simply people free to exhibit the same range of human characteristics and behaviours, some of whom are anatomically different to others but no less human.

But people like identity, even if it's one that entails their oppression - they won't give it up easily. Powerlessness and victimhood can feel very secure. Giving that up and becoming empowered means assuming the burden of responsibility - potentially becoming an oppressor oneself even.

Equality is a long way off.

But destroying gender roles, what used to be called sex stereotypes, wouldn't destroy sex, User. Men and women would still be useful categories. Sexual attraction would still be important, and - of course - reproduction. It's just that current gender assumptions about mothers and fathers would have gone.

I reject gender. I don't have a gender identity. I have a sex and a personality. I only feel like a woman when something reminds me - my menopausal symptoms, for example. The rest of the time I just feel like a person, and this is nearly always. But this is very much because of my age. When I was younger my female body brought me endless unwanted male attention, and I was constantly aware of it. I imagine a world without gender would, among other benefits, allow girls and younger women the freedom that the invisibility of middle age has given me.

Abandoning descriptions wont change anything and its naive to assume it will. It just means people will be oppressed and wont be able to name their oppression.
It wont bring equalness or equality. You can see it for yourself by looking at the inclusion of MTT's in female sports.

Very depressing opinion piece in today's Observer written by Viv Groskop: Do young women really crave the 1950s?

So whilst ultimately I would like males and females to be able to be whoever they want without gender stereotypes, I do think that for that to happen we need to first raise the status of stereotypically female jobs, hobbies and attributes so that they are on a par with male ones.

I used to think like that, but I don't anymore.

What we need to do is liberate women. Then, the problems with stereotypically female jobs, hobbies and attributes will solve themselves.

Computer programming used to be female stereotyped, until men realized that there was money to be made and pushed women out.

In Russia, where doctors are paid much worse than in other countries, most doctors are women.

As long as men oppress women, they will assign high value to the things they like to do, and low value to the things women like to do, and they will grab anything that women do and that they cannot devalue for themselves.

Trying to raise the status of stereotypically female jobs is like trying to empty a bathtub with a teaspoon. While a man stands nearby, ready to turn on the water if the water level in the bathtub sinks too low for his liking.

We need to pull the plug.

What we need to do is liberate women.

That sounds very abstract. What does that mean in terms of concrete goals? What's your definition of liberation?

This is the other problem I have with much third wave feminism: its reliance on abstractions, its belief that attitudinal change can just be brought about by demanding it be so.

Feminists and other social justice campaigners used to have fairly concrete goals: usually pertaining to suffrage and the reform of discriminatory laws. But now, there's this just this airy talk of 'liberation' or 'empowerment' and an assumption that, rather like holding a candlelit vigil for world peace, equality (which is not even defined ) can be brought about by simply willing it into existence by way of making a lot of noise online. Recently some feminists got behind a campaign for the Nordic law of prostitution to be implemented in the UK. Whether you agree with that or not, it was at least a concrete legislative goal. I can't really think of anything comparable in recent years.

As for equality, I think we need to be a lot clearer about what that means. There are things like economic equality which are more measurable, but often equality can sound like a very vague or nebulous concept. And even when there are economic issues like the pay-gap, few people put forward any concrete proposals for addressing that. There's just this assumption that if we make a lot of noise rich men will eventually go "Oh ok then, we'll give up our power". Human beings don't just give up their power voluntarily; they'll dig their nails in like the cat in the cartoon. You can't persuade people to surrender their power.

Sorry, I think it's a mess. Third wave has become indulgent, middle-class and incoherent. The consensus seems to be that we just need to get a few middle-class women into elite industries and everything else will take care of itself. It won't. There will be female poverty, rape, prostitution, porn and all these things.

Most feminists are surely against pornography for example, so why aren't their campaigns to get it regulated and minors protected from it? Why aren't feminist groups demanding new laws to be proposed in parliament? I think it's because many feminists are now more concerned with identity issues that attacking the capitalist system that does such harm to women (and men too).

And while I'm on it, the trans obsession is getting really fucking boring, and is a sure sign that third wave is disappearing up its own arse. Every other thread on here is about the same thing. Yes, there are issues with shared toilets and everyone knows a lot of trans hardliners are full of shit - but is this more important than the exploitation of refugees? Than the terrible wages paid to women in the care and hospitality sectors? Than the damage being done to women and girls by the porn industry?

I think not. So why are we giving such disproportionate focus to stuff like this - or to a bad shirt some scientist comes to work wearing so we can angry about it on Twitter? Maybe we should remember that when we're tapping angrily away we're achieving nothing but making Jack Dorsey and his tech-oligarch boys club a mint. Way to go sistas!

And finally, I think we need to be a bit more self-critical. Women are not simply passive victims: they too have bought into a consumer culture designed to turn women into sexual objects. The mass objectification of women simply would not be possible if women were not willing participants in it. Slutwalk feminism stinks to high heaven.

So yes - feminist is not suitably self-critical atm.

Most feminists are surely against pornography for example, so why aren't their campaigns to get it regulated and minors protected from it? Why aren't feminist groups demanding new laws to be proposed in parliament? I think it's because many feminists are now more concerned with identity issues that attacking the capitalist system that does such harm to women (and men too).

Where do you live? There's campaigns against porn.
But honestly, I am not sure that campaigns will help. What would help would be women boycotting men who watch porn, and as you will see on every mumsnet thread most, women just don't want to do that.

Women seriously lack class consciousness at the moment, and without that, a small group of actual feminists cannot achieve much change.

And while I'm on it, the trans obsession is getting really fucking boring, and is a sure sign that third wave is disappearing up its own arse. Every other thread on here is about the same thing. Yes, there are issues with shared toilets and everyone knows a lot of trans hardliners are full of shit - but is this more important than the exploitation of refugees?

Again, this is not thought through. Are you not aware that refugee women are raped by males who are using the same bathrooms as they? This is already happening, perhaps not because of trans agenda but because of overcrowding and authorities not giving a shit, but trans agenda is a handy excuse that authorities will employ for not giving women safety.

Trans agenda is a virus within feminism, that aims to destroy feminism from the inside out, and it is extremely serious.

But honestly, I am not sure that campaigns will help. What would help would be women boycotting men who watch porn, and as you will see on every mumsnet thread most, women just don't want to do that.

Well, as you say that isn't going to happen. Porn is globally powerful, predatory capitalist industry that draws boys (and some girls in) from the age of about ten. Nothing will stop it but state action. Nothing. So try and stop them - or don't. But it is absurd to expect this can be solved by expecting all women to leave their husbands. Also, have you considered that pornhub's female audience is now around 25% and rising? If there are any non-porn viewing men out there (??) should they just boycott their 'liberated' porn-viewing partners in the interests of feminism? The whole debate gets absurd if you come at it from that angle.

Again, this is not thought through. Are you not aware that refugee women are raped by males who are using the same bathrooms as they?

Yeah, but no one's mentioning refugees at all, in that context or any other. And while I'm sure that's true, should the aim not be to secure safety from sexual predation for ALL women and children fleeing Syria?

It's quite simple.

How many MN threads have been about the trans issue over the last twelve months?

Tot them up, and then compare them to the number of threads about sex trafficking or the exploitation of immigrant women by the hotel industry.

Just saying.

User, women's liberation isn't a third wave thing. It's one of the key ideas of the second wave. See this article about Germaine Greer, which gives a brief explanation of her take on the idea.

I don't give a fuck about men using women's toilets user. I care about the legal changes that are happening bloody everywhere and at such a fast pace that most people don't even know what is happening. On another thread a poster said they probably didn't know any trans people because they live in Ireland and the laws don't allow trans people to change sex... Ireland allows people to self identify. People will be angrier about the laws that disproportionately affect them and these will affect us more than laws regarding women other countries. That doesn't mean they're less important just that this is affecting people here now. Not at all the same as complaining about a man's inappropriate shirt. Very vulnerable women in prison are sharing space with MEN. Here. Now.

"And while I'm on it, the trans obsession is getting really fucking boring, and is a sure sign that third wave is disappearing up its own arse. Every other thread on here is about the same thing. Yes, there are issues with shared toilets and everyone knows a lot of trans hardliners are full of shit - but is this more important than the exploitation of refugees? Than the terrible wages paid to women in the care and hospitality sectors? Than the damage being done to women and girls by the porn industry?"
I think you need to look beyond bathrooms/safe spaces.

How is equality measured? By comparing what is happening to women compared with men, and movement in that measured comparison over time. So consider this possibility - you're looking at how many CEOs of companies are women. The number seems to be going up over time - that's an improvement, right? But dig into the figures and the apparent rise is due to male CEOs transitioning. Same people are the CEOs, but now their counted as women. No females have become CEOs, so there's actually no improvement at all. But you need to dig to know that, looking at the raw stats is misleading.

This sort of possibility is why the trans agenda needs to be regarded. It blurs the reality of females. It has the potential to mislead policy-makers over what needs to be done. 'Oh, the glass ceiling has been broken, no more need for affirmative action.' And similar.

Immigrant women are being sold into sexual slavery here. No one is mentioning this. No one is talking about the class oppression of women. I didn't say the trans thing was a non-issue and neither did I suggest that all the very real problems that arise from it should not be addressed - I'm saying it has been blown insanely out of proportion to the point where other urgent issues are being neglected.

So, what - the goal of feminism is to create more female CEO's? That's fine - but how does that help the vast majority of women?

It doesn't. This is the problem atm. Feminism seems to be almost exclusively dedicated to creating some more rich women while the rest of em can go jump.

There was a time when feminists were left-wing - when they wanted to overthrow the capitalist system with its patriarchal values of aggression, greed and competition. Now it seems they want to join it.

"So, what - the goal of feminism is to create more female CEO's? That's fine - but how does that help the vast majority of women?"
It was an example of why we need to track the trans agenda. I could have used hospital wards, psychiatric care, DV units - lots of things. I chose an easy-to-see example.

Feminism needs to fight on both tactical and strategic goals. There is no point winning a few battles if we lose the war. Because that really will be fuck all use to the vast majority of women.

There was a time when feminists were left-wing - when they wanted to overthrow the capitalist system with its patriarchal values of aggression, greed and competition. Now it seems they want to join it.

If you believe that, then you haven't done much feminism yourself, but are mainly busy complaining about "feminism", and I have no patience for that.

Overthrowing capitalist patriarchy is a good idea, but since no one has a good plan to do that, in the meantime, accumulating some wealth and resources for the feminist movement and women by helping women get into CEO positions won't hurt.

User, you are very ignorant about feminism. First you claim women's liberation is meaningless third wave nonsense. Now you say objections to trans ideology stem from the third wave when, yet again, It's a second wave agenda. Makes me wonder what you're doing on the FWR board telling feminists what we're doing wrong. It's not down to non-feminists to set priorities and, going by your posts, you're no feminist.

Does it matter if it's third or second wave? Does that in any way alter my critique? So what?

And I don't think women's liberation is meaningless. Just that many feminists no longer have a meaningful concept of female liberation, or any coherent strategy by which to bring it about.

If you are not a feminist and don't know anything about feminism, then it is not your place to criticise feminism.

Simple as that.

I don't mean to be too harsh, but there is a problem and we should confront it.

1. Beyond a middle-class higher educated elite, hardly any women identify as feminist or have roundly rejected feminism. We should be asking why.

2. Feminism has become so fragmented that there is no longer any agreement as to what it is, or what it should be. It has descended into online in-fighting between different clans and the trans movement, which might seem very important to everyone involved but is of limited relevance to most people's lives.

3. The sex industry is growing by the minute and no one has any idea what to do about it. Feminists either embrace it as 'sex positive' or agree it's bad and then just get back to bickering about gender pronouns or the iconography of traffic signs.

4. Many feminists have problematically embraced capitalist values, equating female empowerment with individualised material success. In so doing, they hardly ever mention the problems affecting proletarian women, immigrant women or the women from minorities. Or many of them don't. Those that do are marginalised to the fringes of feminist discourse.

It's not working.

What is a feminist? Does anyone even know anymore?

Going by the evidence, User, It's not you. I suggest you leave it to feminists to decide and engage in something you know about.

Why do I have to know the difference between some theoretical terms in order to criticise what I see around me?

This is why so many women aren't interested - this insistence that everyone has to be au fait with all this theoretical terminology before they can have an opinion on feminist issues. It's rubbish.