Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is also Spartacus

[IamalsoSpartacus]

She's just been interviewed on C4 news and has said essentially the same as Jenni Murray.

I was coming on to post her clarification. Spot on.

I have to agree with Beach and Donkey on this.
I would love to hear Chimamanda interrogate more closely the reasons why she doesn't use 'cis', because I think that would get to the heart of it. But in the current climate she would be crucified.

And this:

A trans woman is a person born male and a person who, before transitioning, was treated as male by the world.

Transwomen are treated as male after they transition too. Because they are male. There may be individual circumstances of transwomen who pass being treated as female by mistake but transwomen as a group are treated as men (hence them having so much power and influence and being listened to and able to very quickly change laws, etc).

And that is a big problem and generally, when these things are being publicly discussed, a big elephant in the room.

@beachcomber I get the sense that her writing is very restricted, the clarification reads more like an apology.

"Perhaps I should have said trans women are trans women and cis women are cis women and all are women"

This is the sticking point for me, a) CIS is an offensive term as far as I'm concerned and b) all are not women. They are men, who feel they can reject toxic masculinity by hijacking women's spaces and identity to satisfy their own needs. Rejecting your identity/sex/gender stereotypes does not give you a magic wand to magically become what you imagine yourself to be.

Transwomen are treated as male after they transition too. Because they are male.

Absolutely Beach, and this is another weird aspect of this whole debate, where women are not allowed to point out very obvious things. It's demonstrably true that not only have transwomen had male privilege, they still have it, in spades. The very fact that they and their supporters believe that males have a right to claim ownership of the category of 'woman' at all - and that women must unquestionably submit to this - is the most glaring example of male privilege going.

Another irony is that the people who chant 'trans women are women' don't believe this any more than the women they pillory as 'TERFs'. They prioritise and coddle transwomen not because they actually believe they're women, but BECAUSE they know they're male.

'Transwomen are men. '

Being honest, this is how i feel too. I would use female pronouns and the chosen name of a transwoman out of politeness but deep down, i would still see them as a man. There is no such thing as feeling 'like a woman', no such thing as a female brain, and heels / make up / dresses / long hair are for everyone who wants them and have nothing whatsoever to do with being a woman, plenty of women have zero interest in any of that. Everyone should be protected from violence and harassment but i am really disturbed by the mass delusion and gaslighting involved in the assertion that men are actually women if they 'feel' like they are.

Countess I liked where she said that 'cis' is not an organic part of her vocabulary. You're right; thereby hangs a tale.

I read deep, archetypically masculine voices chanting "transwomen are women" as the equivalent of a child sticking his fingers in his ears and going "la la la". In both cases they want to ignore inconvenient truths. The endless repetitions of this claim - a claim they know as well as I do just isn't true - is an attempt to convince by aggression and sheer force of masculine authority.

In all honesty, I don't think anyone really deep down sees a trans woman as woman first, it is always man first, then woman (in thought processes) - we quell the 'wrong' and express the 'right'. The only people who might are the trans women them selves, but it even then as they know they had to go through tough times from one to the other, so ultimately also will see the individual as having once been a man.

But if there's no shame in it, if it's acceptable, why can't they be proud to be trans? We have separate identities for gay, bi and straight. It's ok. It's not ok to persecute any of them.

It's not homophobic to say I'm straight?

The comments section is really interesting and the ability to hold all the cards is actually very impressive. The we are all women so have as much of a right to discuss issues unless trans related then we are not all women and your view is irrelevant if you are not trans.

^^regarding my comment above, I think I keep thinking of the trans woman who was on crime watch.

This is so hard to debate with in my head let alone out!

I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.

I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.

Personally, except in very rare cases, I believe they are making a concession. Whilst they may 'get' why women get angry about this, they can never 'get' what it means to be one. They can understand how appropriating womanhood is abhorrent to women, but they can't understand what it's like to actually be a woman.

I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.I often feel the trans women who have said "I get this" are demonstrating a level of compassion and understanding that makes me feel they're closer to 'woman hood' than those who wish to force it upon us. It's respectful and allows for mutual respect.

I agree- it's a bit like that Groucho Marx quip about not wanting to be in a club that would allow him in. Thoughtful transgender women are aware enough of their own privilege and baggage having been brought up male to understand that their presence in certain situations is violating.

They can understand how appropriating womanhood is abhorrent to women, but they can't understand what it's like to actually be a woman.

But maybe it's the fact they recognise they can't fully understand what's it's actually like? To me that is truly respectful of a person's circumstance.

I don't know many, and none personally, but from snippets I've read there are a few.

They prioritise and coddle transwomen not because they actually believe they're women, but BECAUSE they know they're male.

Yes! I had such an epiphany reading that!

I've come across scores of women praising transwomen/"non-binary trans" lately, on a couple of different platforms.

"You look amazing!"
"Look at those legs/that waist"
"I'm jealous!"

There's always a slightly patronising air to it, like "there there, I'll tell you what you want to hear". Also quite a large serving of virtue signalling, probably. But it is absolutely because they're male.

Hurrah!

HeyRoly

I can sort of understand it. It's like having opportunity to express and enjoy the superficiality of femininity with a novice. And the gratitude and approval you receive is probably very affirming. If you are in an exclusive club and someone is desperate to join, it has a feel good 'someone-thinks-I'm-sooo-cool kind of vibe.

And I'm quite sure it's only young women who take up this role. Because sexism start to ramp up the older you get. Partly because over time you see it more, but also because once your biology kicks in (pregnancy, not pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, raising children, menopause), you begin to see more and more how and why women are treated differently.

Helen Highwater, a transwoman noted for her gender critical outlook was on here once, and I honestly felt a massive affinity with her. It was exactly like talking to another woman.

Unfortunately, these transwomen are few and far between.

She also had no illusions at all about the fact she was born male. And I completely agreed with that. She was born male. I enjoyed talking to her and if she was in the very small minority of people with gender dysphoria who wanted to be considered women, I would have a little problem. As another transwan on here said a few days ago when she was young they numbered in the hundreds.

Times have changed. And because of the way this is going, there has to be a distinction between men identifying as women and women.

I'm not 100% how Facebook rank the comments on a post, but I think it might be by 'most liked'. the first comment showing under her clarification is a post from a trans woman agreeing with CNA. My point being that the most liked post agrees with her - over 2k people agreeing.

I'm just adding this as sometimes I feel like the only one outside of mumsnet who feels this way but there are at least 2k like minds.

From small acorns and all.

Anyway, back to lurking.

I really rate Chimamanda (have just read Americanah which is a fantastic book). I support everything she says, and am bloody delighted that her argument is focused on the damage caused by misogyny and the harm caused by gender roles. I hope it resonates widely

I'm just adding this as sometimes I feel like the only one outside of mumsnet who feels this way but there are at least 2k like minds

I feel like I'm the only one on my FB timeline who feels this way. . My timeline is full of shouty men - gay and straight - frothing about the transphobic nature of seperate toilets.

They may know how I feel now though, because I've been busy "liking" posts by CNA's defenders.

Just read this, like it very much
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/03/chimamanda-ngozi-adichie-tea-party-word-privilege-isnt-getting-us-anywhere

I got into a discussion in a feminist group about her words, which I felt were measured, respectful, and true. I was basically told to sit down, shut up, and fuck off. So I did fuck off, and finally joined mumsnet after lurking for a long long time.

Which is to say that this was my "peak trans", and I'm happy to be here.

Hi mama. I wonder how many of us end up here after being treated like that? It's pretty counter productive