Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is also Spartacus

155 replies

IamalsoSpartacus · 10/03/2017 19:22

She's just been interviewed on C4 news and has said essentially the same as Jenni Murray.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 11/03/2017 17:56

But I saw Chimamanda on the telly box and had to express my approval. It's not quite as far as I would go, but if it helps to shift mainstream thinking I am with her.

FloraFox · 11/03/2017 18:15

The Rachel Willis are typically disingenuous. Lots of people are claiming exactly that.

Datun · 11/03/2017 18:49

MsJuniper

I suspect this is just another subtle move to change the narrative. The new one will be no, of course transwomen don't have the same experience as women, but they are still women though.

MsJuniper · 11/03/2017 18:50

I guess you are right. I was just hopeful that it was a concession in the right direction but I am probably being wildly optimistic

BevGoldbergsSister · 11/03/2017 21:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker · 11/03/2017 21:54

I had to take myself off Twitter, Bev

I got some threats a couple of years ago. It's not worth my family's security and It's not worth losing my job over

Flugelpip · 11/03/2017 22:20

I am very depressed that I don't dare to say in public that I support her and agree with her (my social media is tied in with my job) . It is ridiculous that I can't say something respectful and basically neutral like, 'I believe that trans women face different challenges from ordinary women and although their issues overlap with mainstream feminism to some extent they are not the same'. I feel the way the trans community reacts to any hint of stepping out of line is bullying. It's like me, a white woman, demanding that black feminism is about me. It's not that being trans is easy but it's not the same as being born a woman, and it never will be. I will never have the experience of being black, no matter how much I empathise and want to understand and help. I will never have the experience of starting to live as a man, either. Different challenges. Different issues. But it's not permitted to say that. Logic makes me a TERF, apparently.

Does anyone else think that in five or ten years time there'll be a backlash from within the trans community at assimilation into the mainstream? That trans women will campaign to separate themselves from women because their life experiences are so much more demanding and extreme than just being a woman?

Barcoo2 · 11/03/2017 23:00

Oh my god. Those arguments on the facebook feeds are just...unbelievable. And those men earnestly explaining at length about the emperor's new clothes. It's just depressing. Hats off to the mnetters who are irrepressibly dealing with their points.

Terfinator · 12/03/2017 00:16

I agree, we need someone like J.K Rowling or her maj to come out as "terfs" to really get this party started...

Datun · 12/03/2017 02:14

His comments. Breathtaking. Anyone can even engage with this bullshit is beyond me

HemanOrSheRa · 12/03/2017 02:37

I happened to turn onto C4 news on Friday night and watch this amazing woman express her views in a calm and intelligent way.

I am very new to the 'Trans debate'. I am astounded and troubled about how quickly it has come into the public 'arena'. My guess is that there is a massive amount of money in it somewhere. Along with the social media explosion of people's lives and feelings being recorded at every single opportunity. This did not happen during the times of fighting for Gay Rights, for example.

Anyway, I just wanted to add my support for Chimamanda. We need more Women like her.

DonkeySkin · 12/03/2017 02:47

Ms Juniper, I read the entire set of tweets from Raquel Willis and they made my blood boil. How dare this black male presume to 'educate' a black woman about gender, let alone tell her what she is allowed to think and say? It's the equivalent of Rachel Dolezal presuming to school Adichie on racism.

In no way was Willis making any concessions to Adichie's argument. The agreement that TW and women's experiences are different was couched in terms of straight women and queer women - by this Willis means that TW are different from women because they are more oppressed - the implication is they have greater claim to authority within feminism, and mere 'cis' women need to submit to their point of view.

This weasel word 'difference' is designed to hide the gender hierarchy. No, the experience of being born and raised a girl is not 'different' to that of being a boy - it is worse. For many girls, it is brutally, cruelly, fatally worse - and this sadistic gender hierarchy is created and enforced by males. The group that Willis belongs to. The group that has colonised the bodies, minds and labour of women for millennia is now claiming to be us if they say so - all the while saying that we oppress them simply by existing. It's a breathtaking act of extreme male dominance and attempting to compromise with them by saying, 'you have your experiences, we have ours, let's find common ground', is never going to work, because they don't respect women as independently exisiting beings at all.

So while it's great that Adichie has stood up to some of this (and I hope she doesn't suffer any serious retaliation from leftists and libfems), like Beachcomber, I fear nothing is going to change until we are able to speak plainly about the fact that the trans 'debate' is not about two sets of women with different experiences - it is about male dominance, and the belief of some men (and their female handmaidens) that men have a right to colonise women's ontological existence itself.

I would love some brave well known woman to voice the idea that feminism is a women's rights movement and that transgenderism is a male rights movement

Me too, and I would also love someone to throw the argument back to the gender identitarians - instead of feminists having to justify why woman isn't an 'identity' that anyone can claim, I want someone to ask trans supporters explain what the logical basis is for claiming that a male can 'feel' female, and vice versa? What is this 'woman brain' or 'woman soul' that transgender males supposedly possess?

fruitlovingmonkey · 12/03/2017 07:41

Great post Donkey. The issue being rooted in male dominance seems so obvious to me. Even my DH said so and the trans issue wasn't on his radar until a couple of weeks ago. He hasn't read anything on the topic yet but as a complete novice he realised that it is about pushing male agenda over female.

QuentinSummers · 12/03/2017 07:57

I'm not interested in disposing of Chimamanda
How fucking magnanimous of you Rachel Hmm
If ever something showed how TRAs view women, that post is it. As an object, something to be used and disposed of when no longer useful. God forbid a woman could have views and opinions that are equally valid to theirs.

MsJuniper · 12/03/2017 11:36

As I said, I guess you are right. I was just hopeful that it was a concession in the right direction but I was obviously being wildly optimistic

Datun · 12/03/2017 11:43

you have your experiences, we have ours, let's find common ground', is never going to work, because they don't respect women as independently exisiting beings at all.

It is NEVER going to work. I was of the opinion saying transwomen were transwomen and let's support that was a fair and compromising concession. It really, really isn't.

Transwomen are men. Very vocal, very bullying, very oppressive men.

VestalVirgin · 12/03/2017 11:47

This weasel word 'difference' is designed to hide the gender hierarchy. No, the experience of being born and raised a girl is not 'different' to that of being a boy - it is worse. For many girls, it is brutally, cruelly, fatally worse - and this sadistic gender hierarchy is created and enforced by males. The group that Willis belongs to. The group that has colonised the bodies, minds and labour of women for millennia is now claiming to be us if they say so - all the while saying that we oppress them simply by existing. It's a breathtaking act of extreme male dominance and attempting to compromise with them by saying, 'you have your experiences, we have ours, let's find common ground', is never going to work, because they don't respect women as independently exisiting beings at all.

Well said.

Bundesliga · 12/03/2017 11:50

Hear, hear.

seafoodeatit · 12/03/2017 20:47

@DonkeySkin - beautifully put.

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool · 12/03/2017 22:44

I just checked the Facebook post on Chimamanda's page and I'm so depressed now! Is feminism over? If this is really what people think who consider themselves feminists then it is over for me. I will still believe in women and I will still work for women and against violence against women and girls, and I will still forefront women and girls and signal boost the work they do but I feel I can't honestly call myself a feminist if this is now what feminism is, this constant sneering at the idea of solidarity based on being female. Please reassure me that this is not the end of feminism, it's just so awful!

Datun · 12/03/2017 22:51

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool

Doesn't lose heart. From what I have seen many people are changing their minds. The thing with Kool-Aid is it tastes fine to begin with but when it inevitably turns sour people start spitting it out.

LaContessaDiPlump · 13/03/2017 09:00

CNA has posted a clarification on FB. I think I love her!

LaContessaDiPlump · 13/03/2017 10:39

The post is here, but here's the text too. I hope I've put the paragraphs in the right places; apologies if I haven't.

"CLARIFYING

Because I have been the subject of much hostility for standing up for LGBTQ rights in Nigeria, I found myself being very defensive at being labeled 'trans phobic.' My first thought was – how could anyone think that?

I didn't like that version of myself. It felt like a white person saying 'I'm not racist, I supported civil rights.'

Because the truth is that I do think one can be trans phobic while generally supporting LGBTQ rights.

And so I want to put my defensiveness aside and clarify my thoughts. To make sure that I am fully understood.

I said, in an interview, that trans women are trans women, that they are people who, having been born male, benefited from the privileges that the world affords men, and that we should not say that the experience of women born female is the same as the experience of trans women.

This upset many people, and I consider their concerns to be valid. I realize that I occupy this strange position of being a ‘voice’ for gender rights and so there is an automatic import to my words.

I think the impulse to say that trans women are women just like women born female are women comes from a need to make trans issues mainstream. Because by making them mainstream, we might reduce the many oppressions they experience.

But it feels disingenuous to me. The intent is a good one but the strategy feels untrue. Diversity does not have to mean division.
Because we can oppose violence against trans women while also acknowledging differences. Because we should be able to acknowledge differences while also being supportive. Because we do not have to insist, in the name of being supportive, that everything is the same. Because we run the risk of reducing gender to a single, essentialist thing.

Perhaps I should have said trans women are trans women and cis women are cis women and all are women. Except that 'cis' is not an organic part of my vocabulary. And would probably not be understood by a majority of people. Because saying ‘trans’ and ‘cis’ acknowledges that there is a distinction between women born female and women who transition, without elevating one or the other, which was my point.

I have and will continue to stand up for the rights of transgender people. Not merely because of the violence they experience but because they are equal human beings deserving to be what they are.
I see how my saying that we should not conflate the gender experiences of trans women with that of women born female could appear as if I was suggesting that one experience is more important than the other. Or that the experiences of trans women are less valid than those of women born female. I do not think so at all – I know that trans women can be vulnerable in ways that women born female are not. This, again, is a reason to not deny the differences.

Why does this even matter?

Because at issue is gender.

Gender is a problem not because of how we look or how we identify or how we feel but because of how the world treats us.

Girls are socialized in ways that are harmful to their sense of self – to reduce themselves, to cater to the egos of men, to think of their bodies as repositories of shame. As adult women, many struggle to overcome, to unlearn, much of that social conditioning.

A trans woman is a person born male and a person who, before transitioning, was treated as male by the world. Which means that they experienced the privileges that the world accords men. This does not dismiss the pain of gender confusion or the difficult complexities of how they felt living in bodies not their own.

Because the truth about societal privilege is that it isn't about how you feel. (Anti-racist white people still benefit from race privilege in the United States). It is about how the world treats you, about the subtle and not so subtle things that you internalize and absorb.

This is not to say that trans women did not undergo difficulties as boys. But they did not undergo those particular difficulties specific to being born female, and this matters because those experiences shape how adult women born female interact with the world.
And because to be human is to be a complex amalgam of your experiences, it is disingenuous to say that their being born male has no effect on their experience of gender as trans women.

Of course there are individual differences. But there are always individual differences. We speak of ‘women’s issues’ knowing that while there are individual differences, the truth of human history is that women as a group have been treated as subordinate to men. And we speak of male privilege acknowledging that individual men differ but that men as a group are nevertheless accorded privileges by the world.

I think of feminism as Feminisms. Race and class shape our experience of gender. Sexuality shapes our experience of gender. And so when I say that I think trans women are trans women, it is not to diminish or exclude trans women but to say that we cannot insist – no matter how good our intentions – that they are the same as women born female.

Nor do I think that we need to insist that both are the same.

To acknowledge different experiences is to start to move towards more fluid – and therefore more honest and true to the real world – conceptions of gender."

~CNA

Beachcomber · 13/03/2017 11:35

I fear nothing is going to change until we are able to speak plainly about the fact that the trans 'debate' is not about two sets of women with different experiences - it is about male dominance, and the belief of some men (and their female handmaidens) that men have a right to colonise women's ontological existence itself.

Totally agree with you here DonkeySkin.

Sorry to be a party pooper but I disagree with a fair bit of what CNA says. I think she is brave for speaking out and I agree with some of what she says but as I said upthread I find her stance placatory and contradictory. It is a stance of "women born women / women who transition to become women".

Transwomen are men. Transgenderism is a misogynistic ideology. Transactivits are genderist men's rights activists. Feminism is concerned with women's rights and the dismantling of gender.

terrylene · 13/03/2017 11:35

She has an amazingly, calmly authoritative and impressively clear way with words. It is very refreshing.

I am going to have to read some of her books now Smile

Swipe left for the next trending thread