Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

Combined with the Masturbator where the head of your penis is your Clitoris! You can masturbate as a girl and urinate with it on too!!! Large Vaginal Opening which creates a larger Sheath. And you can have a Menstrual option added. This allows one to have the appearance of a menstrual flow

They also have one with an 'intact hymen' which comes with a bottle of latex 'so you can lose your virginity over and over again'

I got sucked in by morbid fascination. Now I'm going to bleach my eyeballs.

Skipping over all the fake bits, the point about make-up and failing at femininity is interesting. My mother was very anti-make up so I did not learn properly. I was kind of intrigued that a colleague of mine gave her 13 year old DD make up lessons for her birthday (said colleague does not wear make up at all). On one hand it seemed a good idea to learn properly, on the other, my feminist side was a bit . That said, I tried to interest DD and totally failed. She looks lovely anyway, and is totally accepting of who she is and how she looks in a way which I find refreshing.

It all seems very bizarre to me, to go to such lengths to 'play' at being women. I am kind of having a reaction against being overtly feminine these days, I am a woman, I don't need to add feminine trappings.

Does the menstruation kit come with PMT, nausea & bloating?

Ha! Empress
(And presumably something that causes pain three days straight)

Could it also cause them extreme lethargy combined with insomnia, zits, anxiety and tearfulness? And shame. It's only the Real Woman Experience of they get shamed for everything that makes them suffer.

Yes, forgot the lethargy. And the need for chocolate.

I don't know if this has been linked here yet, but stonewall has a five year planned to increase trans viability and inclusion.

www.stonewall.org.uk/vision-change

I've only read a bit, but I noticed that they want more trans included in sport (especially tw ) and are unhappy with sex by deception laws.

Although, I think after hearing about those pants (I refuse to use the word pant*) I might start believing in male and female brains - there's no way a women would want to be in the same room as those, would they?

Haven't had time to read thoroughly yet but they want children to be entitled to medical confidentiality in line with Gillick competencies, the sex by deception laws to 'protect the privacy' of trans people, and self determination rather than the current process.

I'm sorry but I haven't rtft but have a question that I didn't want to start a whole thread for.

I'm in a debate with someone and need help backing up why I feel a certain way. I can sort of explain it but not eloquently and I've seen women here commenting on the matter much better then I ever could.

I don't like being called a Cis women. I am a women. If someone were to call me Cis I would correct them.
A trans woman is just that. I don't need to be categorised further.

But what else can I say about this whole Cis thing?

I saw on some Twitter posts people saying Cis women don't know what persecution etc is.

So let's just all ignore the centuries of sexism, misogyny and patriarchy we've had to fight.

Sorry it became a ramble. You can see why I need help (I don't know how to use the search function)

Men pushing cis on us is them redefining our language for us without our consent, taking away our language takes away our opportunity to discuss the experience of being female- both the physical biological experience (we now have pomegranit pee pee not menstruation, doudleberrys not ovary and naughty doudleberry's for pcos, and front holes not vagina) and what men do to us because the recognise we are female. That's not acceptable and they can fuck right off if they think women should just passively accept it.

Also-for the truama transwomen go thriugh- they actually have a lower chance of murder than women, lower even than men according to the last analysis I read on Twitter (source of all facts don't ya knlw) the higher rates are because the figures are mostly taken from Brazil or from tw murdered because they work in sex work- and women are murdered at huge numbers when they work in sex work also. The higher risk of sui comes from a study of 2000+ people mermaids quote yet they fail to mention less than 30 people in the study were trans-so hardly representative sample

Wow thank you so much.

I did say in one of my replies that one group can't just decide an name for another.
That one race couldn't force a name on another.
Does that make sense?
It's so hard to explain why I feel this way without offending people! And I'm not trying to!

Even easier one to point out is how they demand we use their choice of pronouns but then they expect us to put up with them naming us cis

CharlieSierra

I have only skimmed it, because I got so pissed off. Trans people claiming they are the most victimised community on the planet, but sure as hell wanting more special treatment than anyone else in the universe.

The rock solid theme running through it is how much discrimination and disadvantage trans-people face. Has it ever occurred to anybody that there is a reason for that? The insistence that you can change sex and everybody else has to agree. Not only does everybody know that you can't change sex, the very insistence is what causes the friction.

If the legal status was 'trans' and actually reflected reality, the friction would dissipate.

People treat transwomen differently not because they are trans, but because they are insisting they women, with everything suggesting otherwise.

They also did not mention that trans-people now includes cross dressing fetishists. They say that the media portray only 'harmful' stories. Well duh.

If they addressed the large section of transwomen who have AGP, you might be able to take it a little more seriously. More and more people are realising that there is a very definite dark underbelly to this. Pretending it doesn't exist is only serving to highlight it more.

The media have only portrayed harmful stories throughout history. Search happy marriage and you will get the once in a blue moon story of the couple been married for 70 years or something. Search affair, divorce, separation or abuse and you will get loads more.

Re Stonewall, this seems to me an organisation which supported homosexual rights, a valid cause, using that legitimacy to promote something utterly different and actually harmful. But open-minded people want to support the first cause and struggle with seeming bigoted regarding the second.

It reminds me of legitimate arguments in the 1980s to lower the age of consent for homosexual acts to the same as heterosexual acts, with less wholesome arguments around removing the age of consent completely.

But open-minded people want to support the first cause and struggle with seeming bigoted regarding the second.

I totally agree. Although the more media exposure trans-people get, the more people are waking up to the fact that there is something a little off. I've yet to see any transwoman in the media come across as credible.

Asking people wholesale to buy in to the notion that your gender dysphoria should be used as a means of making you politically powerful/credible/special is just daft.

Gender dysphoria is just that. It can't be used as any sort of criteria for making people think your opinion should hold any more weight than anyone else's. In fact it's probably the opposite. If your entire life revolves around your identity, it's not going to make you the most dispassionate, well-balanced person in terms of other issues.

Taylor22 great post, I agree with it all, not least on the term "cis". It irks me no end many seem to expect us now to prefix "women" with "cis" - women are women. As WobblyLegs5 said it's rendering it difficult/near impossible to actually talk about being a woman and what that means in so many ways. Now many say you can't talk about issues such as pregnancy, abortion and periods as "affecting women", it's ridiculous.

I saw on some Twitter posts people saying Cis women don't know what persecution etc is.

I have also seen and heard nonsense like this, as well as reminders to "check cis privilege". It's very useful to some, convincing women ("cis women") they have huge privilege, shutting us down when we try to discuss the rampant misogyny faced daily so we can't fight it, making women into a "privileged" category and centring trans issues in feminism. I wonder who that ultimately benefits.

Also we seem to be told "trans women are women" and we should accept them as simply "women" yet actual women aren't women but must be known as "cis women" or some other reductive term.

Thank you so much. Wobbly when I read your comment 'men redefining it made me look. I'm arguing with a man!!!
Who the hell does he think he is?!

Taylor22

The other problem with 'cis' is that it means you are happy with the gender role of your born sex - that's the definition. You identify with it. Which in reality means that women are identifying with the society's oppressive role of women. If you want to step outside that and, for instance, crack the glass ceiling, increase your pay, get better reproduction rights, disagree with FGM and honour killings, not be objectified, not to be defined by high heels, make up etc if means you do NOT identify with this socially imposed gender role.

It's offensive because it reinforces gender roles.

And, of course, the other agenda here is that trans-women ARE women. Therefore women have to be called something else.

Fuck that.

Indeed Datun and it's short for "cisgender". This is one of my main issues with the whole "trans" ideology and bafflement with feminists who go along with it so vehemently. It's saying that the rest of us identify with the gender a patriarchal society ascribes to us from birth and all that goes with that (also shown with how so many trans women talk of "donning a dress, putting on makeup" etc as a major part of their "transition" to becoming women). It's dangerous and wholly inaccurate.

I've probably lost that. As I said I was happy being a woman.

When I told him a man would be on the bottom of the list of people who could tell me what to identify as he said he doesn't appreciate me muddying the debate with a lazy sexist argument.

I could apparently call a motorbike a flower and it wouldn't make it right.

So why can a man call himself a woman and make that so?!?!

I'm sorry I'm not as articulate as all of you. I wish I'd never commented on the FB post now.

Cisgender may also be defined as those who have "a gender identity or perform a gender role society considers appropriate for one's sex"

Taylor I think you're articulating it excellently but also find it difficult to say exactly what I mean on this sometimes, especially when it's sometimes near impossible to debate with people on this whose opinions are so set in stone. Incredibly frustrating, not least when men start telling you who is or isn't a woman based on how someone decides to "define themselves".

Taylor, don't worry you're doing fine. There are a lot of sad little men who enjoy telling women what to think about things which affect them personally. If you stick around here on FWR you'll experience many more of them. They will do anything to derail the main point and make it all about men.

Datun I agree, the only reason people get pissed off and shirty with them is their own behaviour and attitudes; it's like a massive juggernaut. It has to be deliberate. Getting Stonewall behind it in order to position this as equivalent to their previous legitimate cause is part of the plan.

This conversation reminds me a little of Shakespeare.

Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?