Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

India's article is in direct contradiction to Stonewall's "trans umbrella covers EVERYBODY" philosophy.

Will there be war? Will the movement eat itself?

Oh God I HOPE so.....

Maybe in a few weeks Iw will do another article about how she was manipulated and taken in by the bad feminists and that's why people should focus on that big bad and leave poor helpless trans people alone

Not sure if you have seen this. Only trans women have vaginas, the rest of us have self lubricating front holes apparently. This is so offensive to me as a women and a human bring.

Surely it's a joke and not really been posted by @hrc?

If it has, this is nothing less than dehumanisation of a sex class.

"AIBU to object to being referred to as a self lubricating front hole". If anyone's brave enough. Shall we refer to men as self sperm making ejaculators? Fuck this shit.

dementedcommuter

Although that was written for the trans community, (I don't think it was written specifically for everybody), it is the thin edge of the wedge, I agree.

And it just goes to show how female anatomy is not really a transwoman's strong suit, as the urethra is in front of the vagina. Thereby making that the 'front hole' (ugh).

As for a man's penis being a strap on. This is aimed at lesbians. Completely missing the point, as the penis is attached to the man, it doesn't 'strap on' anything. It's another way of coercing lesbians into sex. Because of course men cannot envisage any kind of sex that doesn't involve a penis of some description - surely the world would end.

Regardless of audience the meaning is clear, we are being portrayed as less human than trans women.

Why do they have vaginas, and not non self lubricating front holes? Surely they should be referred to vaginas and neovaginas. No trans have more right to use the word vagina than we do. I'm livid. It's all very 1984.

Words are powerful.

dementedcommuter

I completely agree. I once made the mistake of thinking I needed to inform myself about what actually happens during surgery and thereafter.

Apart from all the mechanics required after surgery to keep the neovagina, let's call it 'operational', the entire issue is sex obsessed.

The testimonials on line and the realities are so far removed it's highly disturbing to read.

The boasting about the neo-vaginas, that they're better than natal vaginas, how they're always ready for sex, etc, makes a quite a gut-churning mockery of what a vagina actually is and does, and only serves to highlight, yet again, that the vast majority of these men see women, and their anatomy as nothing more than something to be penetrated.

Random but I was in M&S and they had a stand with fill-ins for bras and back extenders. These are not intended for women, are they? I mean, are there women who need to extend the backs of bras, or is it for the more broad-shouldered type (i.e. men). And can't women just buy padded bras?

I was stood there with teenage DD, it was right at the counter, and I was a bit like .

"Self lubricating" is a sneer aimed at colouring the natural functioning of a woman's anatomy as gross or icky and a way of discrediting any kind of superiority that real women with female anatomy have over "women" with willies or those with surgically hollowed out pelvis holes.

That list of terms makes me livid dementedcommuter.

I'm completely flummoxed by who these fake vaginas are intended to be penetrated by. The owners are male, so not straight men or lesbians. They don't have a penis any more, so not gay men or straight women.

CharlieSierra

I know, I think it's a weird one too.

From what I can gather, autogynephilia can take such an extreme hold that the desire to be penetrated 'as a woman' overrides almost everything else.

They sometimes go on to say that actually their compulsion lessens somewhat after surgery, presumably due to the hormone change.

But when you read some of the pre-op narratives, that desire to go through as much of a woman's experience as possible is massive. And it doesn't stop at sex, the dream to be pregnant, menstruate etc, it's the whole shebang. All underpinned by arousal.

I disagree profoundly with all the misogynistic bullshit attached to the trans-ideology, but having thoughts like that 24/7 sounds bloody grim.

Another reason why treatment should be less physical and more psychological, in my opinion.

I don't think that they can possibly 'work' the same way. They cannot create a penis which is capable of natural erections, and even if by leaving sensitive penile tissue in place in a fashioned neovagina, this couldn't create a female orgasm deep in the pelvis as the anatomy is different.

I agree, charlie plus post surgery I would imagine that pain is quite high - the healing takes a very long time. I absolutely cannot imagine that the "orgasm" that cooljazz describes actually happened. It sounds like the usual fetisishism of a "vagina" to me.

From what I have read (and admit I don't drill down too deeply because it's rather disquieting) the depth of the 'aperture' is a about 2 inches. Also there is no 'give' or elasticity like in a normal vagina.

They can retain some of their penile sensitivity inside. As the opening comes to a dead-end, it needs constant cleaning, sometimes hair grows inside, there is no natural flora and fauna so the odour is very 'different'. And it will close if it's not frequently dilated. There is no clitorus.

Even writing that is making me feel uncomfortable, because it feels as though it is very taboo to even talk about it.

But if any of this is not flatly laid out on the table in front of parents helping their male children to transition, that's a scandal waiting to happen.

And yes, I think the dating pool for post operative transwoman is incredibly limited.

And for what it's worth I don't think many women transitioning to men have bottom surgery. They might have a double mastectomy, but I don't think many of them go on to have the rest.

And lastly, from what I have read, puberty blockers will stop the penis from developing, so to make a new vagina will require the use of other parts of the anatomy (I think the colon traditionally, but that might outdated now as it caused more problems than it solved).

CoolJazz

Most of them are gay, so I don't think having a penis is much of a prerequisite. But in answer to your question, I don't know. I have to steel myself to think about it, much less look it up!

Do you think teenage girls claiming to be trans, are using it as way to avoid any sexual intimacy, which seems scary at that point in their life?

I think the reason why men and women transition are entirely different.

For girls, I think it is sometimes fear of coming out as a lesbian (internalised homophobia) or sometimes a way of identifying out of their vulnerability. So if they have seen their mother beaten by their father, for instance, identifying as male is a means of avoiding that herself in future and also being able to protect her mother.

It's also a means of identifying with the more powerful class, thereby, again, identifying out of your vulnerability.

It's no surprise that there are more girls identifying as boys coinciding with the social media driven objectification of girls. Sexual harassment of girls is rife in schools. I see transitioning for girls as a form of Teflon coating.

I think women identify as men as a means to avoid the disadvantage of being female. Men identify as women in order to seek what they think is the advantage of being a woman e.g. put on a pedestal, courted, treated as a princess.

One is trying to leave something behind, the other is trying to gain something.

I think with teenage girls it's very likely to be an escape from objectification and harassment. I know that the first time a grown man ogled and commented on my breasts I was only 11 years old and still at junior school.

I think the 'failing femininity' thing is confined to those who are probably lesbians. From what I have read of lesbian blogs, being butch is very common and embraced. It probably has something to do with men being so irrelevant to your life that any kind of performance of feminimity is meaningless. (and I have to say, although I'm not a lesbian, it sometimes sounds quite tempting).

Gendertrender has been one hell of an eye-opening resource for me. It is run by a lesbian who takes no prisoners.

There is ZERO motivation to appease, collaborate with, or include men.

It's actually rather fascinating to see that in action. Despite what I think about myself, I have concluded that there is still an element of internalised sexism in me (in favour of men). When you see women who simply don't have that, it does clarify the difference between the sexes.

The women on that blog don't give a fuck what they say, how they say it, or who they offend (in terms of men). This very attitude provokes instant rage. They are repeatedly told by transwomen that it's not necessary to be angry with 'just lil ole me who lurrves women and means no harm'. When they are informed that no one cares, the gloves come off, the facade drops with a thud and the abuse comes a-frothing. Good old, real, ragingly misogynistic abuse.

Fascinating, yes, but rather depressing at the same time.