Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

@Lauraalmer90

I think you are going to be disappointed by the response from politicians, mostly they evade and answer with vague things like equality is important for everyone blah blah
Sophie Walker (women's equality party) responded on a mumsnetwebchat -
A lot of you have asked about our position on trans, so I'm going to elaborate on that here and then hope to move on to all the other important issues I'd like to discuss with you

I am old fashioned enough to believe that one is not born a woman but rather becomes one. The process of becoming a woman is a messy one, filled with contradictions and influenced by many different factors, depending on where we are born, who our parents are, if we grow up in poverty or affluence, if we are able bodied or disabled, if we live in a war zone or somewhere relatively peaceful and so on. For some reason, every society also divides us into groups, depending on the colour of our skin, the shape of our genitals and often, on the accent that we speak with and the name that we bear

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/2617026-Webchat-with-Sophie-Walker-leader-of-the-Womens-Equality-Party-and-London-Mayor-candidate-Tuesday-19-April-at-noon

Hope you had your blood pressure tablets handy

Rereading Sophie Walker's comments I would say the last sentence is complete nonsense, except in perhaps somewhere where tribal divisions still exist. Any street in UK has a pretty mixed bunch of passers by. We perhaps Choose to divide ourselves by choosing different beliefs or religion, that's a divisor imo and that is a choice, it's not inflicted by society. (though I'm no sociologist)

I was so excited about the WEP when it was launched and would have voted for them until I read their manifesto and saw the stance on the trans issue - no longer the party for women as far as I am concerned, but yet another women's group that it trying to solve every problem with any tenuous link whatsoever to women and not achieving any of them. So disappointed that they claim to represent women - not me thanks (Sandi T was doing much more for feminism as the host of the News Quiz).

"Dbs checks too, if someone changes gender they don't show up past records do they?"

Will add it to the list.

"It would be good to add something about lesbians' right to have their sexuality and boundaries respected but I don't know how to word it."

I have included points about lesbians having the right to spaces and groups, and the right to refuse males sexual demands in the longer explanatory versions of demands C and D. Will try and get a website up ASAP.

"This probably sounds a bit out there, but it's apparently not that hard to set up a political party."

Sounds like a great idea.

"I feel nervous about the resources and discussions here disappearing if MN is heavily lobbied by trans activists such as andie and is compelled to react."

"Can someone with organisational skills compile them & email out or similar"

I have saved the links from the references thread and will put them on the website I'm starting, anyone can then access them and they won't be pulled. Additionally, I think having them all on one site, in an ordered manner makes it easier to find what you want.

Does anyone have been any confirmation about the DBS checks?

I'm in Scotland (so a different vetting organisation) and the guidance gives a way for transgender applicants to apply without telling the organisation that they're trans, by submitting a copy of their GRC direct to Disclosure Scotland.

This seems to imply that the disclosure will show anything that comes up under a previous name/gender, but won't show the previous name/gender.

This seems to imply that the disclosure will show anything that comes up under a previous name/gender, but won't show the previous name/gender

Same in England. A DBS check WILL link to previous names when carried out so if you have carried out a crime, it will come up on the check. What won't show up will be the PREVIOUS NAME or GENDER.

Same in England. A DBS check WILL link to previous names when carried out so if you have carried out a crime, it will come up on the check. What won't show up will be the PREVIOUS NAME or GENDER
Isn't it telling that the only thing previous gender is considered relevant to is inheritance.

CharlieSierra

Very telling. And another thing I wrote to my MP about.

As long as it's just women who are being disadvantaged no one gives a fuck. As soon as a man might miss out the law suddenly doesn't apply.

So a female can't identify as a male and take the inheritance. I wonder how many firstborn males identify as females and relinquish it? In fact, I'm not even sure that that situation is even accounted for in the legislation (because you know, why would they?)

The 'born in the wrong body' scenario is accepted as completely factual, definite and tortuous for the individual, until it comes to money, in which case it's deemed as nothing more than cynical exploitation.

Funny that.

The more I think about it, the more enraged I get. I'm going to bring this up more.

Thank you WitchingHour.

Thanks. Follow-up question (I really feel like my brain's not working today, so this might be a really stupid question):
How harmful is it if someone's previous gender doesn't show up in a DBS Disclosure check, as long as any previous crimes/reportable offences do appear? Is there a way of hiding previous crimes should someone be so inclined?

I think I'm right in saying some people have used a gender/name-change to hide crimes in the US, but it appears that's not possible here - even if the Gender Identity Bill gets passed.

Is there a way of hiding previous crimes should someone be so inclined

I shouldn't think so. I imagine there will be a link / marker on passport / driving license / DBS / other ID to link names together and the past together.

Mind you, the police national computer may not be all reliable?

I'd forgotten about the inheritance thing. I read about it a couple of years ago and weirdly it was my peak trans moment. In terms of the effect on daily life, it's pretty inconsequential. It can't affect more than a tiny few FTT and those it might affect are not likely to end up in grinding poverty anyway. They are first born girls from wealthy, privileged families.

It was just such a blatant admission that the people men making these laws knew this was all total bullshit and didn't care as long as it didn't affect them. Women matter so little that they will cheerfully give away our rights for something that is total bullshit and which they know is total bullshit.

Is the inheritance thing to do with the House of Lords and titles?

It is crap - things should be equal. But if you are going to change a certificate, then that should change your rights as well - such as inheritance. You can't pick and choose.

I'm not actually sure what happens if I get a GRC. I haven't got one yet because I can't afford the fee. I think the only thing it does is car insurance and life insurance - I don't know what effect it has on that though.

Yep. First born son transitions, does he lose out? Nah, he's a man, he can't be disadvantaged. Daughter transitions, does she become 'son' and beat her brother to the dosh? Nah, a man would lose out, that can't happen.
On the other hand, rapist transitions and moves to women's prison? Fine, only women are harmed by that. Man transitions and takes sporting title in women's category? Fine, only women lose out. In fact, man transitions, any scenario at all, women shut up, move over, don't even argue you vile transphobic bigots, and while you're at it suck my dick. In a nutshell.

This tweet sums it up for me:

We need to dismantle the gender stereotypes that accompany the biology. Not delete the biology and just have the stereotypes.

I actually don't think there is any way back on self-identification, gender is after all a made up thing with an ever-changing definition. You can't identify it and so cannot prove or disprove it. No criteria to 'prove' someone is transgender will stand up to scrutiny.

I think what we need to fight for is the distinction between gender and sex and argue for sex to be the dividing point for protection.

And to argue that there is no need GRCs at all, if gender has nothing to do with sex, why do you need your gender 'recognised', you are what you are surely? It can't be to do with protection - you don't need a 'gay' certificate to be able to make a complaint about homophobia.

Tweeted by @charlotteB1.

Hi! I came over here from FeministCurrent - someone linked this thread in particular. I joined specifically because you have a great feminist area going on. I am a radical feminist and this particular topic has been peeving me off to say the least for a long time. Haven't had time to read all of this thread yet and I need to get more acquainted with the rest of the forum but I just wanted to say I'm in. I want to act. I'm tired of just being angry.

Oh and I don't have kids but hopefully that's not a pre-requisite! Looking forward to talking to you all more!

Welcome writersblock!

So a female can't identify as a male and take the inheritance

I am not 100% sure in England but Scots law does not distinguish between the sexes on the right to inherit , except on hereditary titles and even then inheriting the title does not mean you inherit the other assets the deceased title holder owned.

Those will be disposed by the will or if no will, by intestacy statutory rules , which make no distinction. I would be very surprised if English law were different.

You are so kind Venus, you always say "welcome"

Our friend Andie is back at it again, providing a helpful definition of feminism this time. In case any of you were wondering what it's all about...

"Feminism – at least to me – is all about everyone – female, male or non-binary, cis or trans – being treated equally and being given the same opportunities."

Got that? Feminism is about everyone, not just you, you srsly annoying mn terf women!!!

andiepasdedeux.wordpress.com/2017/03/20/trans-children-where-terf-feminism-fails/

kim

I can't find much about the legal status of it all, but this would seem to indicate that equality was proposed, but not passed.

"The bill did not progress beyond the committee stage and will make no further progress.[3]"

"The bill has been referred to as the "Downton law" in reference to the British television drama Downton Abbey where the Earl's eldest daughter is unable to inherit the family seat because it can only be passed to a male heir.[2]"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_(Titles)_Bill

There was an amendment so that, in the case of the royal family, the title could be passed to a girl, if Prince George has been born female, but it didn't extend beyond the monarchy.

FROM GENDER RECOGNITION ACT 2004:

Peerages etc.

The fact that a person’s gender has become the acquired gender under this Act—
(a)does not affect the descent of any peerage or dignity or title of honour, and

(b)does not affect the devolution of any property limited (expressly or not) by a will or other instrument to devolve (as nearly as the law permits) along with any peerage or dignity or title of honour unless an intention that it should do so is expressed in the will or other instrument.

Poor Andie's is rather deluded. So intent on finding women to hate ( nasty feminists) they don't even realise that we share some of their views.

"And as for playing with Barbie dolls and dressing up as a princess, he’d just be labelled a sissy. How come “tomboy” is acceptable and yet “sissy” is not? Where’s the equality?

I found a great website the other day called A Boy Can Too – I guess it was inspired by brilliant campaigns such as This Girl Can and then Trans Girls Can.

It contains dozens of images of boys sticking their fingers up (metaphorically) to the feminists who don’t believe they should get in touch with their feminine sides. I suggest you take a look at it."

Welcome to MN, Writersblock!

I don't have kids either, I'm (mostly) here for the feminism.