Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

It's working. We're beginning to rattle some cages.

andiepasdedeux.wordpress.com/2017/03/18/mumsnet-terfs-youre-not-real-women/

Real women have hearts which are pure and full of love for other people. Their hearts and their minds are open – not closed to minorities just because they’re different, because they don’t want them to join their special club

Yeah, womanhood is not a "club". Says it all that they think it is really.

Oh bless.

If Andie's tracking sources we might even get a visit on this thread.

So if real women are all angels who are never nasty, then Andie's confirming that Tara Hudson (violent criminal) India Willoughby (very rude to Jenni Murray), Kellie Maloney (wife-strangler), Caitlin Jenner (told funny story in public about stealing young daughter's knickers to wank in), Danielle Muscato ("suck my dick"), Sophia Brooks ("suck my formaldehyde-pickled balls") and the lovely Stefonknee Wolscht (found guilty of assault) are not real women. Right, Andie?

I know plenty of transwomen are lovely people. Plenty of men are lovely people too. But the genuinely lovely ones respect women.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans

I am wondering if that blogger is strangeadventure from the Jeska thread.

He has certainly used posts from that thread.

I'm happy to have more questioning people look at mumsnet, if that's the effect of this article. Mumsnetters are articulate, rational and well informed.

Thank you MN for allowing this debate.

Is anyone taking screenshots of trans discussions in feminist chat? I feel nervous about the resources and discussions here disappearing if MN is heavily lobbied by trans activists such as andie and is compelled to react.

Can someone with organisational skills compile them & email out or similar

Anyone on Twitter , please look out for tweets with #21CSuffragette #SexNotGender #GenderIdentityBill

The second reading of the Gender Identity Bill is this Friday so it's a good time to get this tweeted.

I am wondering if that blogger is strangeadventure from the Jeska thread.

Thanks Datun, adding Lauren Jeska to Andie's list of not real transwomen.

'Andie' has said they do not feel like a woman trapped in a man's body, they like their penis, they wear sexy lingerie at the weekends, but not during the week.

You can add 'Andie' to their own list.

I can see why people don't want major surgery. There are risks involved. But keeping your penis because you like it and want to use it for sexual purposes means you aren't trans and aren't trapped in the wrong body.

Keep your penis if you are worried about major surgery.
If you keep your penis because you 'like it', then you aren't trans.

'Andie' disagrees with that ego.

Have you all seen this article from the Guardian? It's supportive of the view that Jenni Murray put forward and talks about sports!!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/18/identity-issue-our-age-talk-more-honestly-trans-women

If you keep your penis because you 'like it', then you aren't trans

As I understand it, that is very much not what many transactivists are saying, but would be very happy to be corrected.

I think Ego's absolutely right and is also well aware that many transactivists aren't saying it.

I agree that you are right Ego and I apologise for implying you aren't aware that many transactivists disagree - I misinterpreted your post.

Yes I read about Lauren Jeska and what she did was terrible. Ralph Knibbs was a local hero throughout my childhood. But there are different categories of female prisons. It looks like specific safeguards were put in place where Tara Hudson was- which she wasn't happy about, but given who she was and what she had done, it was understandable. Women are much less likely to be violent but there are some e.g. Joanna Dennehy/Rose West so there are places for dangerous women whether transwomen or not, and different ways prisons deal with particular prisoners.

I think being completely anti everything trans can be quite an isolating position, and difficult to make a reasoned argument from. It is at the moment acceptable to change your gender/appearance whether we agree with it or not and that is how society works at present. We can't have society saying 'its ok to change' and then have prisons that don't match up with that, if the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate.

Part of the rehabilitation of other women, biological females, does not include the likelyhood of being raped by lian huntley or other violent males.

I don't think it would make sense to put a post op transwoman in general male prision population, that doesn't mean the alternative is being put in with females though. They could provide all kinds of protections within a male prision. They could look at trans wings. It's unlikely the staff at a female prisions would be best placed to meet the needs of someone trans. A trans person will have specialist needs that are different from those of women, and men.

I don't see the problem in putting a male to trans in a male prison any more than putting any other effeminate/feminine/gay males in prison - they probably all have a fearful time.

I don't think the answer is putting them in a female prison though - considering that all of these males - even post op male to trans are generally far stronger and more violent than females, (even if their delusion makes them believe they are totally different from their own sex).

Trans prison wings are a good idea.

I would guess they would also be of no interest whatsoever to any male prisoners who were just trying it on.

I agree trans wings would be an excellent idea. Tara Hudson's mum said there needed to be more provision for Trans and was suggesting LGBT prisons but I think the LGB bit is unnecessary/unfair.

Lian Huntley is an exceptionally unfunny joke.

According to Jane Fae that's all wrong. It's not about whether Ian Huntley is male or female, he is definitely a transwoman, but some transwomen are just deplorable.

I remember very clearly Ian Huntley's case. Silly me, not realising that at the time he was literally a woman from birth and had absorbed all that misogyny and oppression reserved for women, and none of the male entitlement reserved for men.

I expect it was most likely the trauma of being born in the wrong body that made him commit the horrible crime that he did. Perhaps there should be an appeal?

Sorry for accidental misgendering. "She".

Oh, I've just realised that Jane Fae admitted she doesn't know if he is or not.

I'm sticking with not.