Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

Sorry if I came across as negative, CoolJazz, that wasn't my intention. It sounds like you're finding your feet and doing great things on Twitter.

What I meant about the hashtags is just to remember they are tools to help get the message out there, not an end in themselves. I don't think we should spend any time debating what the 'best' hashtag is, just try a few and see which (if any) gather interest. If #21Csuffragette is working then go for it! If we want people to know there's a gender identity bill in the pipeline, #GenderIdentityBill might be a good one too.

I'll try and get on Twitter later today. Unlike MN, I find I have to steel myself a bit, I don't find it relaxing. I probably need to follow some kittens and other daft accounts in with all the serious stuff.

I am appalled by all this. Until a few months ago I didn’t actually pay any attention to all this transactivism and I had no clue about their agenda, I didn’t know what any of the terms meant i.e. TERF. I had heard of transgender and I remember watching a news report about the bathroom issue in the USA and thinking it was unfair that children weren’t allowed to use the bathrooms of the person they identified as. At the time I didn’t realise the implications. Now I feel my eyes have been opened. I’m scared but I’m also so angry.

I’ve been reading a lot of Miranda Yardley. I love her, she’s great and what she says makes so much sense although I think it shouldn’t even have to be said as it’s common sense. I’ve also been reading a lot of articles about gender identity in other countries. Last year there was an uproar because Planned Parenthood in America referred to women as “menstruators”. There was also another article I read which talked about changing the medical terms and referring to women having “front bottoms” instead of “vaginas” and “breasts” were referred to as “chests”. I think in the article it mentioned that this is already happening in some countries. I can’t remember where I read this but if I find the articles I will post them. It’s just horrific and all sounds like something out of a Margaret Atwood novel. I am not a cis-woman or a menstruator. I am a woman. I have breasts and a vagina. It’s just biological fact.

I believe in equality for everyone and I do believe everyone should be treated with respect and have the right to live their lives peacefully and not fearing harm. I believe that transgender people should be protected from prejudice and discrimination. HOWEVER, this should NOT be at the expense of other people, in this case, women who are already a minority group and protected group.

I think it’s really important to fight back against this otherwise women will end up losing all our rights and protections. I’ve started posting on facebook and talking to people about this issue. I’ve also sent emails to my local MP but he never replied. I tried to arrange an appointment to see him but he is full up.

Could we also get some organisations involved? For example, there is the Fawcett Society, which campaigns for women’s rights www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/. Maybe we could also get the Women’s Equality Party involved? www.womensequality.org.uk/ Finally, maybe we could get businesses and / or organisations involved that are not specifically for women? This may be a little hard because it may be seen as we’re asking them to not support equality. We need to frame it as something like “help protect the equality and rights of women and girls” sort of thing.

I am also so shocked at what is happening in schools. Those CPS guidelines are crazy. How can we teach girls (and boys) consent and that it’s not ok for someone to touch you without your consent, for example, but then at the same time tell them that a boy entering their private spaces has the right to be there and they’re not allowed to feel uncomfortable?

I am a feminist but I think it may be a good idea to not be too radical on this issue so as not to alienate women, not all of whom are feminists. It’s sad but that’s the way it is. I don’t remember where I read it but there was a protest, last year I think, against the proposed Gender Identity Bill and Maria Miller said something like she was amazed at the reaction and thought it was only feminists who had a problem with the bill. I think this just shows that people still see feminism as something radical when issues like sex segregation in bathrooms, changing rooms and other places is just a matter of dignity. I have nothing against transgender people at all but I would not feel comfortable with a biological male in a woman’s bathroom or changing room and that's not to mention women's refugees and rape centres.

Laurapalmer90

Welcome aboard!

There are currently several threads here on the feminism boards about this issue, which you might find useful.

Miranda Yardley is brilliant. Unfortunately she is retiring from social media because the threats of abuse over her views have finally taken their toll.

I don't want to depress you but:

...in this case, women who are already a minority group and protected group.

this ship has already sailed. As the legal definition of women now includes men with a gender reassignment certificate (and penises for a lot of them), women are no longer allowed to gather on their own in an official capacity without the presence of that man should that man object.

This is what you're thinking of I think, Laura. It wasn't a protest, it was about the reaction to the Transgender Equality report. Miller said “The only negative reaction that I’ve seen has been by individuals purporting to be feminists,”

Women’s Equality Party

Chocolate teapot unfortunately. One of the first things they did was campaign for Tara Hudson to be moved to a women's prison. Sophie Walker, leader of WEP, came on to do a webchat last year. It went quite badly.

As long as women keep seeing transwomen as women, (albeit a slightly different version), they remain blind to the manifold problems. As soon as they see them as men, the emperor's clothes drop to the floor with a crash.

I don't think many people really see transwomen as women. They just aren't thinking about it in any depth.

I am a feminist but I think it may be a good idea to not be too radical on this issue so as not to alienate women, not all of whom are feminists.

Unfortunately, such has been the encroachment into women's rights, I think it is radical, at this point, to say that a man can never be a woman. That a woman cannot have a penis. That a man cannot have a child. That a woman (in the UK) cannot commit rape. Aren't these already radical statements? I wish it weren't true but I fear that it is.

I'd just like to share this tweet.

"The Mumsnet Massive"

Now that's what I call a handle!!

It's a lovely message from Raven, and a retweet from Gender Critical Dad is worth having! Gender Critical Greens pay a lot of attention to MN too.

Thanks Datun.

I've been hooked on the feminist boards on here, so much great discussion. I finally decided to join in :).

this ship has already sailed. As the legal definition of women now includes men with a gender reassignment certificate (and penises for a lot of them), women are no longer allowed to gather on their own in an official capacity without the presence of that man should that man object.

Seriously?! So a transwoman is legally defined as a woman, even though all they have is a gender reassignment certificate? I didn't know that was already the case legally, I thought that it would happen with this GIB if it's passed. What about transmen, are they legally defined as men, does anyone know?

This is what you're thinking of I think, Laura. It wasn't a protest, it was about the reaction to the Transgender Equality report. Miller said “The only negative reaction that I’ve seen has been by individuals purporting to be feminists,”

Thanks Pencils. Yes, that's what I was thinking of. My mistake.

Women’s Equality Party. Chocolate teapot unfortunately. One of the first things they did was campaign for Tara Hudson to be moved to a women's prison. Sophie Walker, leader of WEP, came on to do a webchat last year. It went quite badly.

That's no good then. Disappointed about that, I would've thought they'd be more supportive.

Unfortunately, such has been the encroachment into women's rights, I think it is radical, at this point, to say that a man can never be a woman. That a woman cannot have a penis. That a man cannot have a child. That a woman (in the UK) cannot commit rape. Aren't these already radical statements? I wish it weren't true but I fear that it is.

Bobara, yes I think these are now considered radical statements but they really aren't and they shouldn't be. It's just biology.

I left the WEP almost as soon as I joined because they define a woman as 'anyone who identifies as one'. I'd really like to question Sandi Toksvig about trans ideology and the erasure of lesbians, I'm appalled at her lack of integrity in this.

I'm sharing on Facebook, normally with minimal comment, trying to let articles speak for themselves. I've just shared this: Transgender lifter makes Kiwi history

I know what Laura means though. Lots of women who previously have not seen themselves as feminists, will join this cause

That may make them feminisits but they may view it as just illogical without considering the theory about why.
People like my mum
We want to include those women too

And I refuse to view 'women don't penises' as a radical statement. I(t's been termed radical by the transactivists. It's not. It's simple biological fact

Absolutely agree with all this. And it's not just lots of women, I think most men will agree once they see the reality of what is going on and being said. Certainly everyone who I have talked to in rl a) hadn't thought about and wasn't aware of the realities and b) agreed with "women don't have penises" once they did.

I think once people are presented with the facts, the truth is fairly self-explanatory - as Empress says - the stories speak for themselves.

I also wonder how many people assume all transpeople are like Hayley Cropper?

I must be in the minority- I couldn't see prob with Tara Hudson going to women's jail given she'd had hormones/surgery/lived as female for years. Being in male jail seemed inhumane. Likewise Lauren Jeska. She cheated and was violent- but if you've got a 'female' body and been living as one for years going to male jail just seems wrong.

The 2 recent cases involving rape- at least 1 of whom is basically a fully functioning bloke in a dress- they should be in male jails but I think there is no general need for punishing genuine transwomen more than other people (by sending them to the place they most stick out like a sore thumb).

I still worry about assigning crimes to the wrong biological sex though.

Ready to be flamed hiding behind sofa

Tara Hudson still had a seven inch surprise.

But dangermouse Jeska demonstrated male strength in dominating a sport he'd only just taken on when competing with women, male entitlement in thinking this was an acceptable and fair thing to do, and male pattern violence in taking two big knives and trying to murder the people that wanted to stop him.

What part of that is 'living as a woman'? He seems like a big strong, dangerous man to me - does your sympathy extend to the women in prison with him (who won't be easily able to defend themselves if he attacks them)?

was violent

The court heard how Mr Knibbs, a former rugby player with Bristol, suffered a stroke at the scene which temporarily blinded him in one eye

He now has limited vision in both eyes, rendering him disabled, his movement is restricted and he has difficulty eating due to severed nerves

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777

Ralph Knibbs

Poor guy

Tara Hudson was an intact male with a 'worrying criminal record' and eight previous convictions.

We should (and would) be campaigning for the transgender community to have their own rights and spaces. Terms like cross dressing should disappear. A man should be able to wear what are perceived as womans clothes just as I can comfortably wear trousers and shirts. Male violence against transgender people should be properly investigated and punished.

However the transgender community needs to realise they can't encroach on the hard won rights of others. A group can't ride roughshod over other people just because they shout louder. They should be obtaining their own rights and protections, which they do have enshrined in law anyway.

As far as I'm concerned any trans woman shouting to be let into woman only spaces is a selfish, thoughtless person. Fight for your own rights and spaces and I'll happily stand with you.