Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

[dorade]

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

Brilliant posts - Blistory and Witching and others.

I think there is at least one really important strand which needs to be separate from an organised political campaign.

The CPS document and other information for schools etc, including learning module for GP's comes from GIRES, e.g.
www.allsortsyouth.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Trans-Inclusion-Schools-Toolkit.pdf (look out for the 2 scenarios telling girls to shut up about having a boy in their changing room or playing on their sports team)
This is a charity providing information and support, their aim is:
GIRES' overall aim is to improve substantially the environment in which gender non-conforming people live. GIRES upholds the right of all those who do not fit the typical boy/girl, man/woman tick boxes, including people who intend to change gender role completely and others whose gender identity is non-binary, to live proudly in a society that celebrates diversity.

Where do professionals, parents, schools, young people get access to information and training which aims to improve the environment for girls who do not conform do rigid stereotyopes and find themselves without a clear sense of identity? For boys and men who like pink and sparkles? An organisation whose promotes biology and being comfortable in your own body without the need to change your pronoun. Which organisations are running role play exercises in schools to reduce hate crime towards a boy with long hair and painted nails so he can safely use the boys' toilets? Who is running a help line and support groups for these children and their parents which isn't pro-transition like Mermaids? I know these organisations say that they support all gender non-conforming people, but in practice everyone gets lumped under the trans umbrella. People wanting help with transition are not disadvantaged in anyway and can still find the support they want.

A charity which positively promotes these values, could apply for grants like the other charities like Stonewall/Mermaids do, and engage patrons and champions, provide a platform for some fabulous role models. Promotes non-gendered parenting, clothes. Makes representations to select committees.

Placemarking.

Fantastic post Witching.

thanks Blistory and witching you both make very good points.

I've found that as intelligent women we are starting to have this conversation in RL too, mainly prompted by Jenni Murray. I think social media is important as well though- for the dissemination of information/views and challenging them. Without social media I wouldn't have found out about the gender equality bill.

I don't think challenging TRA has to be bullying, although it can be. A lot of depends on how one person perceives another though.

and stopmakingsense that document is appalling.

I cannot believe that there is some topsy turvey world where if a girl complains about getting undressed in front of a biological male, she is the one to have to go elsewhere!!

Just started a reference thread if anyone would like to add to it.

Perhaps someone could form a simple list of points that people might wish to have included in the debate on gender identity which would hopefully produce clear responses and explanations of how the conclusion was reached (with any scientific research to back it up if available).
E.g. A Concern over the recording of crime stats.
Risk of injury to women when heavier stronger T M to F players can play against them.
Restrictions to women's freedom of movement for personal or religious reasons due to T M to F entering formerly Female only spaces. E.g. Wards, changing rooms.
The Cost of changing e.g. Nhs databases with changed genders.
Request for debate on when and how children can commence treatment. Etc etc
As lay people it is too easy for any views to be sidetracked and answers quoting incorrect claims to be used to shut down debate (e.g. Accused of calling T M toF rapists because I said they should not be allowed in female toilets - likewise the false suicide risk claim stastistics concerning children).
One list of simple demands. The list could be easily emailed and printed or made into posters.
Perhaps the media would take up on that too.
If enough people ask the same questions it's harder for MPs to sidestep it.
Anyone think this is worth trying?

Yes! Was thinking this myself.

Posted this on Jenni Murray thread too - rhere is a ruling about Lauren Jeska. BBC said she was a transgender athlete. Lauren Jeska jailed for Alexander Stadium stabbings
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777

Stopmakingsense you make a really good point that the information distributed in schools is totally one-sided. Somehow, partisan groups such as GIRES and Gendered Intelligence have become the sole source of information for schools, and the transactivists have managed to more or less silence any debate on the issue by shouting transphobia.

Can we ever get back to the position that it's OK for a girl to be a tomboy, and also that it's OK for a boy to do 'girly' things? Thinking about it, the trans message that you have to fit into some sort of gender stereotype is the epitome of intolerance - a girl who is in some way 'boyish', or a boy who is a bit 'girly', must be eliminated.

It's a real problem. I am sure much of the information is supportive of diversity and promotes anti-bullying. But it is promoting a belief system (if you say you are trans then you are trans for good, pink brain, blue brain etc) that is not based on science. It may be creating transgendered young people, who certainly weren't 'born in the wrong body', but are experiencing identity problems and do need skilled objective help.
I expect every public and voluntary organisation uses the same sort of material. Which quotes flawed suicide statistics, tells parents puberty blockers are irreversible, and points parents towards Mermaids. Another one here:
www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk/special-educational-needs/family/gender-dysphoria
It covers the possibility that the child isn't transgender but rapidly moves on to how to come out at school and using the right toilets, and that regretting change is rare - I don't think done with malicious or sinister intent but a powerful sort of evangelism dressed up as liberal tolerance. It's all pretty toxic as the young people involved are very vulnerable and do need kindness and support, not ridicule. They just don't need to be on a one way track to a single diagnosis.
Where does a school or parent go for independent advice? GP's have the same source of information. Probably social services too.
Is this something a journalist might be interested in? An academic study?

Sure the MPs won't think you mean NewImprovedAllMaleWomen, though, CoolJazz?

Whoever mentioned court challenge- what about Facebook/twitter etc for allowing die terfs/rape terfs etc? Or esty for the badges mentioned on the other post? Or the transwomen posting photos in women's toilets 'just to piss them off' & encouraging others to do so? Angelica perditta?? I think was the last one I saw doing so (surname might be wrong I could check) or what about some of the v evil stuff on you tube? Claiming lesbians should be raped if they don't have sex with males?

Sorry I meant to say parents are told that puberty blockers are reversible, not irreversible. This what Justine Greening believes too.

Report from the chalk face ...

I did some training today which included stuff on discrimination and the EA.

The trainer wrote gender/gender reassignment as one of the 9 protected characteristics. I bit my tongue and didn't mention that 'gender' on its own is not a protected characteristic (yet) or anything about Maria Miller's bill because I would have got angry and I like my job.

He also asked the group what the difference between sex and gender was. Everyone stared at him blankly for a minute and then I said gender is how you identify and sex is your actual body, which was the right answer, apparently. It's not quite what I wanted to say (because I like my job) but it felt positive that sex was still being acknowledged at all and not conflated with gender.

I went to some training a bit like that a while ago, the training was all about transgender issues and conducted by a trans women. I was asked the same question and answered that sex was a biological fact and gender was socially constructed. Nothing was said about that being right or wrong, she just moved on to the next thing. Nobody else had answered so there was no discussion about the difference.

Indid mention it on the Twitter thread too - there is a FB website called This Never Happens. People collate news articles about men in women's spaces, TW'a crimes reported as women's etc. Worth having a look. It's a public group.

What wonderful posts. Thank you all.

My feeling is that I've spent some time on twitter now, largely retweeting what more eloquent people have said. And I feel as if I'm tweeting in an echo chamber. It's been great to read posts by so many like-minded people, but I don't feel as if it's ever going to amount to anything in real life.

How do posters feel about creating a real-life feminist lobby/action group? With t'internet I don't believe the likely geographical spread should cause too many issues? We could put material together, website etc and then approach local community and possibly nationwide organisations.

I'm a newbie activist but provided that it's aim and purpose was to put forward the feminine agenda and protection of children rather than being explicitly anti-trans then I'm willing.

Retweeted Jazz. My MP isn't really active on twitter, I'm trying to meet her in person before the vote.

I've had a few indications that people might be interested in a real-life feminist lobby group, but so far not enough to act on. If anyone else is interested maybe drop me a PM?

I love the #21CSuffragette and think that this might just be the name for a new group to rally to. I am so keen to get involved - Cool can we get a website together please?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I am going to repeat what I said on the Jenni Murray thread. The fact that so many posters on this thread have noted that they cannot speak out in their RL name for fear of the repercussions illustrates that women are rapidly losing their right to free speech on such a fundamental matter.

That said, I think that thread on mn and emails to MPs etc are not enough. Whilst there is clearly a need pointed out by the OP for an organised campaign. All of us who feel strongly about this issue (whether or not involved in any organised campaign) must be willing to put our heads above the parapet and say so on our social media pages and in our own names (and therefore take the risk of being attacked, as Jenni Murray and Germaine Greer to name but two have, by our friends, family and society). Until we speak up in RL without the protection of anonymity on mn we are not really being Spartacus and any campaigns will fall at the first hurdle through lack of popular support.

If we care about this we need to speak out and continue to do so and we need to do it for ourselves, for our daughters and granddaughters just as amazing women in history fought in their RLs and real names for the rights we take for granted today.