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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

767 replies

dorade · 09/03/2017 10:13

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

  1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.
  1. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.
  1. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

OP posts:
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Blistory · 12/03/2017 13:58

This is going to seem like a bit of a killjoy post and as much as I don't want to detract from the positive vibe of this thread, posters need to be realistic about what social media can achieve, particularly when it is being used anonymously.

Real life doesn't happen on Twitter. The vast majority of people live their lives surrounded by different views and outlooks and we manage to coexist quite well . On social media, we wrap ourselves up in the comfort of only those who share our views and this distorts our sense of success. Talking down a transactivist online isn't a victory but often just a form of bullying. It's the same the other way round. No one has the moral high ground on social media.

We also tend to hugely distort the influence that social media has on the grown ups. Most of us put down the laptops, the mobiles etc and move on to work, home life, family life, community and put the online spats to the back of our minds.

Social media distorts human behaviour and there's a backlash because of this. If you post anonymously, then you are perceived as a troll. There isn't a huge amount of sophistication to social media but it has its own rule set that doesn't reflect real life social interaction. It's perfectly acceptable to be anonymous in real life when you fear for your safety but that doesn't apply online when it becomes a measure of the lack of accountability and credibility of a poster.

Transactivism hasn't gained traction because of social media, the social media simply provides a supporting role and a source of "facts". Transactivism has actually followed a very liberal approach in achieving its aims. It went for the social, political and educational structures. Softly softly approaches to the BBC, softly softly approaches to schools, government, the NHS. It took acceptable faces of transgenderism in the likes of Laverne Cox and Caitlyn Jenner to test the waters and it's now using school children as the public face of their oppression.

Transactivists kept the insanity for online - the claims that transwome menstruate, that neo vaginas are indistinguishable from vaginas, that fetishism plays a role - all of this is hidden from the general public.

Transactivists took advantage of the growing backlash against feminist gains, against political correctness and piggybacked on this. They hijacked liberal language and spouted feminist theory and in doing so , appeared non threatening and familiar to those who want to be perceived as tolerant and open minded.

If you look at where transactivism has gained and lost, you can see the ways in which society can be influenced.

Online - that's just a shit storm to those who choose to actively participate. To everyone else, it's just noise. I'm not sure there's a war to be won here. An online presence, yes, a source of facts, yes, but as a tool to make real gains ? I'm not convinced.

Lobbying. It works. People spend millions on this. You need a think tank, an action group, a policy, an aim, a tone that doesn't alienate or attack but that focuses solely on the gains you want to make and puts this to MPs, to schools, to the NHS, to social services, in a way that shows demonstrable benefit to society.

Community - we all talk about politics and religion freely. We need to stop pussy footing around tranasactivism. Why not talk about transwomen going to female prisons with our colleagues, friends and family ? Doing it in real life brings it back within the social norms that we don't attack, we don't shout down and we don't threaten someone we know and are having a conversation with. We need to stop letting the norms of social media influence real life.

Transactivism is losing in 2 main areas and having difficulty with a further two -

Old fashioned feminist activism. The women's marches largely shut down transactivists apart from a few online. There remains a power in demonstrating sisterhood. We don't always need to talk about transwomen but simply about women. The world still knows what that means. Take transwomen off the agenda and focus wholly on women, do it in a spirit of openness and honesty and love and leave them no place to speak up or to speak out. They have made the mistake of thinking that online support equals real life awareness - it doesn't so we need to take advantage. We need to step up the campaigns for women's rights, not dilute them with trans rights. If transwomen want to support these marches, groups and campaigns, great, if not, they show themselves for what they are.

Children - as supportive as people are to the idea of little Jonny, now Jemima, using the girls bathrooms, there is still huge distaste about little Jemima throwing away her future fertility, about being chemically castrated and cheerfully heading towards irreversible surgery. We can capitalise on the fact that society still aims to protect children while transactivism actively seeks to hurt children.

Legislation - it isn't in their favour yet. Case law tends to find in favour of sex and not gender. We need to seek judicial review or challenge a transwoman being put in the female estate. We need to find an acceptable case and fund a legal challenge. Whether it's allowing transwomen to access women only refuges or competing on a sports team, we need to get this in court. That way the science can be heard without the hysteria, we can seek to define women, gender, transgenderism.

Fear. We need to stop hiding. People I work with know I'm not generally a cunt. So when I express views on transgenderism, they don't automatically think to shout me down or to get me sacked. They tend to give me space to speak. I give them space to speak. I listen and debate. I concede where necessary - so we have unisex bathrooms at work but we won't send opposite sex case workers to visit vulnerable service users. We put ourselves in a position where if a trans person challenged us, we could make a credible case for showing that we uphold the rights of transpeople but balance it on a case by case basis with the needs of others. We don't tolerate trans hate speech but we define what that is, not the transactivists. We ran our policies by our solicitors and that opened up another discussion about trans vs women in another professional firm and demonstrated that in the real world, people are capable of supporting both trans and women whilst distinguishing between the two. We couldn't have done any of that if we kept silent or hid behind a twitter account.

It's like the old colour blind thing. It used to be cool to pretend that we didn't see the colour of people's skin, that we were all so tolerant and hip. What we really achieved was to take away our ability to identify and speak about racism. We told ourselves that colour didn't matter when sometimes it was the most important factor. We need to prevent transactivism doing the same with sex. Sex matters and we need to bring the discussion back to that and keep it there.

We need to realise that transwomen are not the threat they pretend to be to us as individual women. The die in a fire rhetoric is online bullying shit but it won't be addressed by us just shouting louder. It will be addressed by bringing it out in the open and letting it die in the scrutiny of real life. We need to put names to petitions, funds behind women's resources and stand outside with our signs. We need to take the responses of MPs to the media and shame them for inadequate responses, we need to ask sports committees to publicly explain why women are being shut out of competing fairly, we need to encourage debate with transactivists in the public sphere, we need to write to newspapers, the media, the police, our local GPs, our local governments and ask them to explain themselves and ask what evaluation they did of the impact of their policies on women and girls. Do we know how our government records crimes by a self identified woman, by a pre OP transwoman, by a post op one ? Do they understand the wider implications ? Do they have a policy and if not, why not ? A twitter egg can't demand answers to those questions. But you all can.

As always, there's nothing easy about being a feminist but we need to put ourselves out there. It doesn't need to be big and dramatic but it needs to be visible otherwise there is no point.

WobblyLegs5 · 12/03/2017 14:00

Skooba you can either point out the obvious, that the concern is males in the toilet who take advantage of this law, or you can email links of mtt offerers which are pretty high iIrc. There's lots of links on the aibu thread on this, lots of mtt sex offenders links etc

MercyMyJewels · 12/03/2017 14:01

This
I think that CPS document is worth tweeting - it's so shocking

WobblyLegs5 · 12/03/2017 14:03

This until the resources thread is put together by whoever sahd they would the aibu thread on gender identity law has alot of links.

WobblyLegs5 · 12/03/2017 14:16

I've tweeted the cps doc to lots of people. No responses bit hopefully just doing might mean someone would look.

I would have thought the girls sports issue would be important. For any groip/mp that talks about girls getting enough pe in school the idea they won't access sports because males will take the places and because mtt pose physical risk should be shocking (hopefully)

What twitter etc is useful for is gentley challenging younger gen ideas on this, especially younger females who don't want to be inconsiderate to others needs & are caught up in trendiness & havn't thought about rapists in female prisions or refuges. That's useful too. Not everyone can be public about this stuff, I have good reason to hide my name on line incase abusers fund me, I'm sure thats true for victims if dv also. But we can still help in others ways

WobblyLegs5 · 12/03/2017 14:23

Yes that's it. She talks of stereotypes so explain how gender identity reinforces sex role stereotypes. She talks if not putting barriers in place of girls. Point out how gender identity would put barriers within sport & stop girls doing what they want. She talks of stem so point out how stem scholarships for females willl be taken by males.

Use her own language in the argument to convince her. Make each point them ask her if she supports/agrees with sex role sterotypes/barriers limiting girls/less females accessing stem studies etc.

MercyMyJewels · 12/03/2017 14:31

I know that Scottish politics is very polarised because of the independence issue but I think that NS is actually quite progressive in her social politics. I do not agree with some of the SNP's policies (named person is fucking travesty) but I honestly believe that NS, when given the actual facts of the debate, would hit peaktrans very quickly. The same goes for Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale, who are also both lesbians. Can't say the same for the Green fucker, what's his name again?

Skooba · 12/03/2017 14:35

Interesting Blistory.

I wonder how much it costs to put an advert on tv pointing out some of the planned changes to legislation. Just informing people.

bringonthetrumpets · 12/03/2017 17:43

Blistory This absolutely ROCKs. Thank you. Star

JapaneseTea · 12/03/2017 20:31

Blistory great post and so true.

Where do you see the best existing organisation to join and stand behind?

So true re the courts. Is there a feminist group that monitors recent legal cases?

I would love to get involved but don't know where to start.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 12/03/2017 20:36

Brilliant post, Blistory.

CoolJazz · 12/03/2017 20:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/03/2017 21:06

Plane toilets are disgusting. I've been known to. hold on long haul because the floor is always covered in piss and they stink. I've always thought they should be segregated.

BevGoldbergsSister · 12/03/2017 21:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whoputthecatout · 12/03/2017 21:41

YY Blistory. Social media is not the real world. Much of it is tub thumping but irrelevant. It needs a campaign basis on science, facts, the law etc. Asking the hard questions of real-life people.

Just one thing to add to Blistory.

If you get called a bigot, a TERF, a transphobe etc. Remember it doesn't matter. It really doesn't.

There are worse crimes than being a bigot, a TERF or a transphobe.

Being a man pretending he is a woman (for example). That does really matter.

CocoaLeaves · 12/03/2017 21:45

That is an excellent post Blistory , lots to think about.

RunningWild12 · 12/03/2017 21:51

Blisters - yes. We need to be brave in real world. But as Japanese Tea says, it's hard to find out where to get together and start doing something. Well. Maybe easier than 18 months ago when I thought I was on my own. Thanks for the discussions. Hmm. Must be a way to organise.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/03/2017 00:45

A quick post to say that I utterly support Blistory. Social Media has its virtues (it can provide a way for people to feel less lonely, allow alliegences to form and show the twitter watchers that there is considerable backlash against to transwacktivists, etc.), but the battle can't be fought there entirely. There are already some groups organising against the Bill and the movement more generally. Perhaps support could be offered to these?

I don't think that anyone will give a shit about women in this debate, sadly. Women have been blamed for being raped since time began - in this brave new world we will just be blamed for being raped or assaulted by AGPs, etc.

I think that the wedge is around transitioning childen. This isn't just about sterility, it is about a range of health effects caused by blockers and other drugs, as well as mutilation more generally. Drawing attention to de-transitioners would help, I think, as would stories from parents and child survivors of the trans movement, etc.

I know that it is hard for a range of people (old school trans, parents, those who were encouraged to transition and did / didn't and who regretted it if they did, etc.) to speak out, but women more generally can't do it all.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/03/2017 00:50

I also said this before, but asking questions about the security implications of allowing fluid gender identity (i.e. immigration and passports) might be a strategic wedge.

WitchingHour666 · 13/03/2017 01:44

"Transactivists took advantage of the growing backlash against feminist gains, against political correctness and piggybacked on this. They hijacked liberal language and spouted feminist theory and in doing so , appeared non threatening and familiar to those who want to be perceived as tolerant and open minded."

What has led to this whole mess is men being permitted into feminist groups. Men then influenced women's analysis of our own oppression as well as the strategy we use to fight it. This is why there is now very few real feminist groups and activism that challenges these mens ideas (demands). The result of this is women and the mainstream accepting liberal mens ideas as if they are actually feminist ideas e.g. porn is liberating, prostitution is empowering, the sexualising of girls is progressive and on and on. The ultimate of which is "transgenderism"; allowing men to enter the biological category of women, and so getting rid of female spaces, and completely eroding any boundaries we set in relation to men. Even our basic ability to talk about our own oppression at the hands of men is now being challenged by them.

"We don't always need to talk about transwomen but simply about women. The world still knows what that means. Take transwomen off the agenda and focus wholly on women, do it in a spirit of openness and honesty and love and leave them no place to speak up or to speak out."

We have to challenge the ideology that maintains men can become women, it is toxic to females and non conforming children, this cannot happen if we don't talk about these men and what they are doing. We have to stick to a firm biological definition of woman and man, some men do not conform to the male sex role, but they are still men, this is absolutely vital for a campaign to achieve anything of worth.

"If transwomen want to support these marches, groups and campaigns, great, if not, they show themselves for what they are."

Men are sometimes invited to participate in feminist marches, demonstrations, campaigns etc., though men need to respect it when they are women only. Where they do not ever belong is in feminists groups, only women should be forming a analysis of our own oppression and devising a strategy to combat it, we have seen what happens when men participate. We end up where we are now.

WitchingHour666 · 13/03/2017 01:47

"Talking down a transactivist online isn't a victory but often just a form of bullying."

It is not bullying for women to stand up for themselves against these men. I think it is interesting to consider why some consider it "bullying" when a woman challenges men for holding the sexist belief they can become women. But no one in their right mind would call someone a bully if they challenged similar racist, or anti disabled beliefs. For example if someone white or abled bodied claimed to be asian or disabled. I think the answer to why this is misogyny.

"Doing it in real life brings it back within the social norms that we don't attack, we don't shout down and we don't threaten someone we know and are having a conversation with."

I have never seen any feminist woman opposed to this ideology attack or threaten anyone. This is all a one sided thing coming from men to women, as is always the case with supporters of MRA like ideologies. Women do however, have the right to be angry about what these men are doing, and I believe should be free to express that.

You need "a tone that doesn't alienate or attack"

Feminists have always known that to effectively fight for women's rights it is important to name the problem. The problem is mens violence and their feeling of entitlement to access to women, particularly sexual access. The fact is men as a group stick together to insure that they can get what they want, in this case it is liberal men. Men that claim to be women are men, they use the same tactics as their brethren use to control women and force us to do what they want.

Men have to be named as men as overtly as possible, they are not a different type of woman, they are a different (not that much though) type of man. If we don't do this the problem of mens violence to women and mens sense of entitlement to access to women cannot be named. Women are having to fight men for the right to define ourselves, this cannot be ignored or not spoken about just because these men may "feel" alienated or attacked. Men don't like being made aware of how they harm women, it is not a good enough reason though to fail to name the problem.

I do agree that we need to campaign in real life, as well as online. I also agree that these men need to be challenged in court, and we do need to raise public awareness, which should be where a lot of the focus of the campaign should go in my opinion.

EmpressoftheMundane · 13/03/2017 07:45

Bravo witching so well said and clearly thought out.

Datun · 13/03/2017 08:18

I agree with a court challenge. The problem is if someone is legally a woman, it's a done deal.

People on social media are very much aware that the changes have happened. The general public isn't.

Does the general public know that the legal definition of the word woman has changed? Does the general public really know that women can't gather officially without the presence of men, if that man says so?

Transactivism is affecting relatively few people in a practical sense.

Jenni Murray is the one, lone mainstream broadcaster who has even questioned the ideology has not only received a huge backlash from abusive TRAs but a massive of support and publicity.

Most people who have come into contact negatively with the ideology utterly refute it but are too frightened to speak out. I don't think it will take much. The ideology does not stand up to scrutiny and as more people who are in a position to make the public aware of it question it, the more it is exposed.

I agree that the transing of children is a pivotal aspect and will produce outrage. But hand-in-hand with that, is the bottom line that men can become women, legally or otherwise.

If you eradicate that aspect, both culturally and legally, the ideology falls on it sword.

CocoaLeaves · 13/03/2017 08:33

If there is a court challenge, what would be the grounds and who would pay?

Lots of great posts, rushing so posting quickly, but thank you.

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