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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Etsy -violence against women.

124 replies

shins · 11/02/2017 13:06

www.etsy.com/ie/listing/502801323/handmade-terf-stomper-patch?ref=hp_rv

Reported this to Etsy a few weeks ago, it was on the Radfem Collective's webpage. It's still there. How can Etsy keep a product that advocates "stomping" on women? Can you imagine if instead of "terf" it had some racial epithet or "trans"? It's not the only one either, there was a "Death to Terfs" t-shirt selling a while back. When are people going to see this for what it is -misogyny and violent patriarchy under a different name?

OP posts:
Fauchelevent · 13/02/2017 10:00

Dan Dennet does explain it well. Post modern ideas of gender means that everything is up for interpretation, nothing has any concrete meanings. Hence "woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" sufficing as a definition.

The last sentence is especially correct. For TAs, woman is a conversation in which nothing can be confirmed and no one is wrong (except women who don't play along yaknow).

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/02/2017 10:54

To some degree, I agree with that. My agreement stems from Enlightenment roots though (also known as liberal or liberal democratic roots though), when 'God' was overturned and 'man' (with 'his' reason, etc.) became centred.

To put that another way, we (or at least the vast majority of human societies now and throughout history) have chosen to divide the human race into a binary based on particular characteristics (originally, genitals).

We could have chosen any other dividing characteristic (over 5'4 you are a tall human, and, under this, you are short, for example). To sidetrack myself consider poor old Pluto - is Pluto a planet or not? It depends, based on human defined criteria. There is nothing intrinsic about Pluto to say that it is or is not a planet. The power of defining is human based.

But, in relation to humans, we didn't categorise on the basis of size because it made sense (rationality again) to call one set of people, based on observable characteristics, Female and the other set Male and it didn't make sense (Goodies Apartheight aside) to divide according to height (let's leave 'race' aside here, that's another matter).

Modernist Enlightenment thought, to some degree, also recognises that how we name things is also about the relative power of different groups of humans. So Mary Wollstonecraft and our other early forebears called men to account for their power in claiming that only men possessed rationality and were deserving of rights and they pointed out that we could understand women as possessive of these too. There was some quite robust debate about this and it was an open debate because Enlightenment thinkers are wary of book-burning (and probably more so than most other traditions).

Being rational, and being concerned about other fundamental principles such as justice, equality, etc., enlightenment thinkers would also ask questions such as 'how does our choice to name women and men, or black skinned people and white skinned people tally with equality and justice (etc.)? In other words, if a human exercises their power to name something, who wins and who loses and on what bases do we make these kinds of decisions.

I first read postmodern texts in the 80s and I got a cold chill then because I could not find one that really offered up a convincing theory of power and how this works and how it might be sexed or largely in the hands of the intelligentsia, etc.

What terrifies me about a lot of the TRAs (who seem to borrow surface ideas from both liberalism and postmodernism, mixed with libertarianism and anarchism) is that they don't think through and are not willing to have debate about who has the power to name and interpret and wins and loses from their conviction that the 'truth' that sexed identity is a matter of personal interpretation (and thinking about it, this is as much of a truth as 'there are two sexes and some unfortunate individuals with chromosomal disorders' is, despite their pomo claims).

TL;DR - Postmodernism worries me because it lacks a theory of and recognition of (sexed) power.

CaoNiMa · 14/02/2017 07:14

Such an interesting post, YetAnother. Thank you for that.

HelenDenver · 14/02/2017 08:59

Thanks yet.

riobruins · 18/02/2017 13:35

Going to back to the etsy listing. I reported the one linked last week, I also found another and reported it. This one www.etsy.com/uk/listing/291536931/trans-pride-125-set-of-4-pins-activists?ref=hp_rv (hopefully that works, I'm not sure how links work on here)

Neither have been removed, thought a week was long enough, so I've messaged them to see where they stand on it. I have little hope but you never know.

RaisinsAndApple · 18/02/2017 14:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 19/02/2017 09:57

raisins

Well exactly. And I have yet to see a single incident of a transwoman being attacked in a male bathroom in this country. If anyone knows of one, let me know.

riobruins · 24/02/2017 20:51

On the etsy thing, I noticed the one posted in the op is no longer there, so I assume they have taken it down, unless the listing expired. The other one I found saying terf stomper and die cis scum is still there though.

cuirderussie · 25/02/2017 23:27

I wonder too -the original one has removed their shop. But I've reported those badges too and they're still there.

riobruins · 25/02/2017 23:44

Did they remove their shop? I just clicked the link and it's back again, it definitely wasn't there earlier.

wigglybeezer · 26/02/2017 13:49

Maybe the I am Spartacus/ gender critical crowd could buy these from etsy instead as a way of recognising each other

wigglybeezer · 26/02/2017 13:51

www.etsy.com/uk/shop/ChaliceNotPhallus.

RaisinsAndApple · 26/02/2017 14:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RaisinsAndApple · 26/02/2017 14:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RegentsParkWolf · 26/02/2017 21:50

The turf stomper advert is still there. The shop (AutonomousAlien) also make custom made T shirts so I have sent this enquiry : Dear AutonomousAlien, could you please send me a quote for a T Shirt which says "the owner of the etsy shop AutonomousAlien is inciting violence against women - please boycott this shop." I know it's probably just going to encourage them but I couldn't resist.

riobruins · 26/02/2017 22:32

I don't see one for tshirts unless they've taken it down. The patch has disappeared again though. I have messaged Etsy again asking whether they support violence against women. The reply I had the other day just kept stating they'd look into and they comment on specific listings but they'd discuss it with the listing owner. So I went more vague and told them it seems like they support violence women and whether they do or not.

cuirderussie · 27/02/2017 15:35

Hi, I emailed Etsy at least six times and got no response whatsoever.

cuirderussie · 27/02/2017 16:29

Die Cis Scum, charming. You know they aren't talking about men here. At this stage it might be worth a solicitors letter.

whoputthecatout · 27/02/2017 16:35

Die Cis Scum sounds like a hate crime to me......

riobruins · 27/02/2017 16:36

The message I got from etsy last week just said they would work with the seller privately to resolve any policy violations. I've just been reporting them everyday this week and I'm going to keep doing so.
In January a few twitter accounts tweeted it to etsy and they said they'd look into it but clearly they haven't or just don't care.

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/02/2017 16:44

For what it's worth I've also reported this to Etsy. I've received no response for the previous ones I reported.

riobruins · 27/02/2017 16:47

If you report things they don't contact you. If you message them through help then they should reply to you, though they won't discuss any listings with you.

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/02/2017 16:48

I'll give that a try as well :-)

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