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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Etsy -violence against women.

124 replies

shins · 11/02/2017 13:06

www.etsy.com/ie/listing/502801323/handmade-terf-stomper-patch?ref=hp_rv

Reported this to Etsy a few weeks ago, it was on the Radfem Collective's webpage. It's still there. How can Etsy keep a product that advocates "stomping" on women? Can you imagine if instead of "terf" it had some racial epithet or "trans"? It's not the only one either, there was a "Death to Terfs" t-shirt selling a while back. When are people going to see this for what it is -misogyny and violent patriarchy under a different name?

OP posts:
riobruins · 11/02/2017 16:12

Sorry I have never posted before, I have only ever read, so hopefully I'm doing this right.

I reported it quoting their own policy, number 4, items that promote, support or glorify hatred. And that I hope etsy don't condone attacking women.

I don't think the majority of people will see it soon at all. I was told yesterday I was transphobic because I said that straight people aren't homophobic because they're not attracted to people of the same sex so you can't call someone transphobic if they're not attracted to a trans person. Which I feel is correct but they were not fond of that.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/02/2017 16:14

Welcome rio - yes, you're doing it right.Smile

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/02/2017 16:19

Hello, Rio. Good for you. Sounds like you did it exactly right. They'll have a hard time arguing against the points you've raised.

Logic and courtesy will win the day in such matters.

VestalVirgin · 11/02/2017 16:23

Not at all surprised that the shop owner is a violent misogynist and does not see his wrongs when they are pointed out.

Hope etsy have their priorities straight. Do you think it would help if more people reported it?

DeviTheGaelet · 11/02/2017 16:26

A lot of feminist Facebook and real life groups now say "if you don't accept transwomen are women this isn't the group for you". This is clever because it means no one will voice thoughts that transwomen aren't identical to women for fear of being excluded from the group. Group exclusion is very psychologically damaging to humans.
It's interesting that on here, where we are all more or less anonymous, the "transwomen are women" view is much less prevalent. It makes me wonder how many feminists truly believe that and how many just publicly say they do so as not to be ostracised.

Saucery · 11/02/2017 16:29

I reported it to Etsy a few weeks ago too. Nothing has been done.

venusinscorpio · 11/02/2017 16:30

And if you look at the women's march, the idea of pandering to transwomen in everything pertaining to female biology just wasn't on many protestors' radar. This is "feminism". Not a woman's rights movement.

shins · 11/02/2017 16:35

I'm very aware of the groupthink and fear of ostracism, yeah. I'm happy to have and defend unpopular opinions because I have the confidence and life experience of a 40something. I wouldn't have had that when I was young, which is why someone like Magdalen Berns is so admirable.

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/02/2017 16:37

I think it is worse the younger you are. My DC are grown up and women my age just don't seem to be on board with this trans bollocks. Compare that with the horrendous harassment young lesbians at university face.

Me, I'm not likely to lose any friends and definitely not my job over it, so I can say what I think. Others are not so fortunate.

What with no longer getting hit on by random men, feeling far safer walking through town at night and being able to speak my mind I find there's a lot to be said for becoming invisible as women age.

DeviTheGaelet · 11/02/2017 16:37

I am too but with social media especially it's really hard because you deleted and blocked at the first hint of "transphobia" so no one even gets to hear a slightly dissenting voice. It's crazy really.

DeviTheGaelet · 11/02/2017 16:38

Anyway I'm going a bit o/t sorry

venusinscorpio · 11/02/2017 16:39

You're not o/t, that's exactly the problem.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/02/2017 16:44

The Women's March was a hefty fuck you to the trans borg. They think they control the conversation but when you look at all those photos of the march they are a sea of pink. All those pussy hats, all those placards using the word pussy. Women know what woman means and most of us aren't buying what TRAs are selling.

venusinscorpio · 11/02/2017 16:45

YY, and they didn't like it.

pickledparsnip · 11/02/2017 16:50

They definitely didn't like it. I saw a lot of criticism.

Werkzallhourz · 11/02/2017 16:50

I'm getting gradually more and more concerned about this phenomenon as it is starting to normalise violence against those who not only hold different opinions, but uphold scientifically accurate facts.

It all stinks of a politicised violence in support of the imposition of a neo-language.

VestalVirgin · 11/02/2017 16:52

It's interesting that on here, where we are all more or less anonymous, the "transwomen are women" view is much less prevalent. It makes me wonder how many feminists truly believe that and how many just publicly say they do so as not to be ostracised.

I have met, in real life, true believers who openly admitted that they want the bepenised in women's shelters, yes, even sharing bedrooms with women. It was creepy.

But I think there are some who choose to believe the shit in order to fit in and feel good about themselves. Young feminists who don't want to hurt anyone and want to be inclusive, etc. Not sure how those would react to questions about penises in changing rooms, showers, bedrooms, etc., as I don't dare say anything, either.

Probably not so many secret gender atheists, as, to me, having a feminist group be all about trans would remove most reasons to be part of it. Your feminism is about women, or it is bullshit. Once you have realized that, I think it is hard to do any work for a pseudo-feminist group.

Perhaps for some that's where all their friends are, so they stay and pretend, but other than that ... why stay?

Fauchelevent · 11/02/2017 16:57

I'm in my twenties and a lot of so called intersectional feminists my age and younger won't post a thing on facebook without a million trigger warnings and disclaimers.

Even for things like tw:swearing, tw:boobs. It's so tiresome. Virtue signalling of the highest degree. It's become such an echo chamber of identity politics where the trans woman is the infallible reign supreme, where any dissent is shut down and dissenters blocked, no-platformed and erased entirely.

Any views outside of what is sanctioned by seemingly a few arbitrarily appointed trans women are not voiced. Or maybe you'll find someone who seemingly has views like yours, and you'll make a few tentative comments before you realise you're both on the same side. Does it sound dystopian? Orwellian, or perhaps like the "May Day" scene in The Handmaids Tale? It's because it absolutely is.

I don't know how many young people will begin resisting. No one of them can answer the questions "what is a woman" and "but what does it mean to 'feel like a woman' " i truly think a lot of young women are asking themselves the same question. Since the biological answer is vetoed, they have no idea what makes them a woman and then come to the realisation this must make them non-binary. So now 90% of identity politics "feminist"s that I know call themselves non-binary. They're gender conforming, make up and heels wearing females, but use the they pronoun because it's easier than saying "But my vagina alone is what makes me a woman."

Saying that would get them ex-communicated for life. I'm so exhausted.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/02/2017 16:57

why stay

Maybe they haven't worked out where else they can go yet?

venusinscorpio · 11/02/2017 16:57

Your feminism is about women, or it is bullshit.

I think we need a meme of that Smile

Fauchelevent · 11/02/2017 17:01

Awful SPaG, I know. You get the jist.

venusinscorpio · 11/02/2017 17:01

I really do sympathise Fauch. I understand how exhausting it must be dealing with this shit when most of my peer group couldn't care less about feminism. But for you, it must be especially hard.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/02/2017 17:04

That puts me off looking for feminist groups in the flesh. I did a search for my area but nothing came up. However I live in a university town and I'm sure if I investigated there must be feminist groups there.

What puts me off exploring further is partly age, though my everyday social circle is nearly all 20-25, so it would be more the other women's feelings about my age iyswim, and partly that I think I would be banned shortly after arrival due to my views on trans issues.

Fauchelevent · 11/02/2017 17:24

It's just tiresome. I, like a lot of people my age, cultivated my feminist ideals through tumblr. In that way it's great for getting young people to say "I don't like how I'm being treated and I want to challenge it."

Most people on there are, or were, 13-25 give or take. And what do young people really like? Cliques and categories. And that's a two fold issue. The cliques, the most popular blogs were setting the bar of acceptability. What's oppression, what's activism, what's not. And actually there, you do see the anti-trans man rhetoric that Mumsnet thinks is mythological. There you get all kinds of flexible thinking. If my male partner and I both transitioned, I, in my newly obtained trans man identity would have ALWAYS had more "male privilege" than my (formerly) male partner. Always.

The other point is that young people like categories. When I was 14 it was goth, emo, whatever. Now you go on tumblr, and there's a whole tumblr dedicated to listing gender identities. Complete with latin names. So now aspects of your personality, no matter how ambient, are your gender.

So really thats the atmosphere educating a lot of young people. I don't know a lot of people my age still on tumblr, but while the people and the attitudes have grown up, the sentiments remain the same. It's a semi-utopian one: we don't want anyone to be sad or hurt or oppressed. That's noble. But in order to create this utopia NOTHING gets questioned or challenged. Trans women, especially ones marginalised in some other way are the most unquestionable. They can never be wrong. And really it's a lot easier to make feminists and lesbians an easier target than MRAs, Nazis, fundamentalists, government or dare I say the general populace. All of whom have a much more ferocious view of trans women, and contribute much more to trans suffering. But aren't lesbians and feminists so much more accessible and easier to break down than all that?

It's only when you start reading outside the echo chamber including works by academic feminists (rather than EF articles and someones blog) that you begin to question it. I began by lamenting that so much of the anti-porn literature was so anti-trans. Then I realised I couldn't deny or refute the gender criticisms either.

And I don't want to be a downer on or patronise young people. It's a tough atmosphere where you don't want to offend anyone, you want to be good, accommodating and this lets you take a principled stand in a very easy way. But it's misguided, I think.

DeviTheGaelet · 11/02/2017 17:27

I was discussing setting a group up with a local friend but I don't know how to make sure it stays focused on actual women without getting branded some kind of bigot.
It might have to be an underground resistance movement Wink
I want to meet actual real life feminists but it seems almost impossible, how did we get here?

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