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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Etsy -violence against women.

124 replies

shins · 11/02/2017 13:06

www.etsy.com/ie/listing/502801323/handmade-terf-stomper-patch?ref=hp_rv

Reported this to Etsy a few weeks ago, it was on the Radfem Collective's webpage. It's still there. How can Etsy keep a product that advocates "stomping" on women? Can you imagine if instead of "terf" it had some racial epithet or "trans"? It's not the only one either, there was a "Death to Terfs" t-shirt selling a while back. When are people going to see this for what it is -misogyny and violent patriarchy under a different name?

OP posts:
Fauchelevent · 12/02/2017 11:43

Also may I share my FAVOURITE new PoMo term?

"People who never wear clothes that wrap around both legs, and only clothes that wrap around each leg individually" translates as "men".

There's the small issue of women who only wear trousers... but since the gender lobby really is about 19th century gender stereotypes, are women who wear trousers women or are they really men in denial?

Sorry MN for talking so much... you can't imagine how stifling it is to not have anyone with whom you can talk real progressive feminism

venusinscorpio · 12/02/2017 11:45

Seriously? This stuff gets better and better!

Fauchelevent · 12/02/2017 12:03

There's something slightly frustrating about the whole thing. The rather lengthy definition of man was part of a fairly incoherent comment that eventually made a decent point against the MRA "not all men" argument. The person who wrote it is female to trans

To me, actual intelligent commentary is being shrouded, diverted and bogged down by a lot of bollocks, essentially.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2017 12:08

Fauch - you're extremely welcome to post here. I can't imagine that sort of idiocy being said irl because surely someone would howl with laughter?

JigglyTuff · 12/02/2017 12:14

I was working in London last week (unusually) and looking at all the non-binary young people on the tube. And realised that a) it is pretty obvious what sex someone is, even when they're trying really hard not to fit into gender stereotypes and b) it is so very, very self-indulgent and immature. By the time I was in my 20s, I'd grown out of all that navel-gazing and was looking outwards at the world and trying to change things. How can you mobilise and agitate if you're spending hours deciding which pronouns you want other people to use?

I was a founding member of the Women's Equality Party but resigned my membership after Sophie Walker came on here and sacrificed women on the alter of aggressive transactivism.

Not in my name I'm afraid, Sophie.

Having said all that, the women's marches gave me hope, as does the fact that a lot of vocal supporters of transrights on my FB timeline have become very quiet of late. But it is all very bleak

Datun · 12/02/2017 13:21

fauch

There's that aspect, but also the exhausting process of always apologising for any mention of vaginas and never linking it to your womanhood. Even if the fact you are a woman, and have a vagina is an inescapable fact when discussing your sexuality. So pretty useless really.

So what what do they talk about then?

Which aspect of being a woman is 'allowed'?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/02/2017 13:29

"People who never wear clothes that wrap around both legs, and only clothes that wrap around each leg individually" translates as "men".

Wow .. and there's nothing ethnocentric about that!

venusinscorpio · 12/02/2017 13:30

All the poor Scottish accidental transwomen.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 12/02/2017 13:33

That whole wrapping round legs definition is just bollocks. There are probably millions of men who don't wear trousers. Trouser wearing isn't men only, nor is it all men.

Yes, Fauch, I was wondering what on earth you could discuss about women's sexuality if you can't mention anything about female anatomy. What occurs?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/02/2017 13:39

All the poor Scottish accidental transwomen

Well yes. The evil part of me was thinking that they should fly this theory at 1am in a bar somewhere in Glasgow just to test the waters... the less evil part was thinking of the numerous other Islander, Arabic, Asian and other cultures where men wear skirts!

PovertyPain · 12/02/2017 14:41

Oh, I'm so glad I read this, especially the definition of 'gender none conforming'. Next time some stupid arse wipe calls me cis, I'll say "how dare you call me cis, when it's obvious I'm gender none conforming! Your words are judgmental, violent and make you a bigot." 😡😆

Fauchelevent · 12/02/2017 16:00

My DP had to cover his short "clothes that wrap around each leg" with long "clothes that wrap around both" quite a lot in Asian temples! Grin it was really nice to date a woman for that short time.

And ehh, not a lot! It's online so there are a lot of sexy selfies (which are revolutionary praxis, dontchaknow). A few questions similar to the mn sex topic and some discussions. You could talk about sex, being a woman and having a vagina as long as the last two are never equated, not even on a personal level. And as long as the last one has trigger warnings and disclaimers etc. A lot of selfies though.

whoputthecatout · 12/02/2017 16:46

I am totally befuddled how a miniscule sub group (TAs) of an already small group (trans gender people) can have such an effect on everyone? How can that happen? Is it because younger people are now so concerned about being PC, or of virtue signalling, or desperate to being part of a new trans gender fashion or what?

Why does anyone give a shit about being called a TERF or a bigot? I couldn't care less. I happen to think that TAs are bat shit crazy biologically ignorant prats and they can call me what they like if they get off on it.

But I am astonished at the virtue signalling organisations that cave in to these weird bullies even though they must know they are talking utter bollocks.

2017 - the new 1984 indeed.

VestalVirgin · 12/02/2017 17:08

I am totally befuddled how a miniscule sub group (TAs) of an already small group (trans gender people) can have such an effect on everyone? How can that happen?

I think it is because their reinforcing of gender stereotypes makes them useful allies for antifeminists.

That, and I suppose most young feminists don't actually want to oppose men. They don't want to solve any real problems. They want to live in a world where all differences between the sexes are socially constructed and they don't have to really achieve any change to liberate women.

Biological reality is messy and unfair, and social "discrimination against men" is actually the only way to even things out. If you have laws that give men access to all children they contributed their sperm to, then a man can, after a divorce, go on and have four more children with another woman, children with whom he can play happy intact family, but his exwife cannot go on and have four more children with another man. (Well, depending on age she could, but it would be taxing on her body.)

Et cetera and so on. Biology is not fair or equal, but being treated the same as men is all young feminists dare strive for.
Actually demand to be treated so that the outcome for them is equal to what men get? Nope.

The transideology must be very tempting; promising that all their problems are already solved, and they only have to drink the koolaid. Somewhat like those letters by African princes who need your help to get access to their large amounts of money, and you just have to help them out with a tiny little sum so that they can access their millions and make you a millionaire.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/02/2017 17:30

I don't think all the TAs are actually transgender - I think being a trans ally, or giving yourself even more legitimacy by claiming to be non-binary, is being used by men who are not transgender in the traditional sense to give them an excuse for bullying women and taking a dominant role in feminist groups. So I don't see TAs as a subset of transgender people so much as an overlapping group.

Fauchelevent · 12/02/2017 17:37

I think it was a slow progression. There were plenty of rational ways to support trans people, and there were and are many trans people who aren't TA. Since it got attached to LGB, and most trans people were trying to live their lives and endure dysphoria, no one really questioned it. This was back in the days when you could say "Lucy was born a boy" or "born in the wrong body" without horrifically triggering someone and being a major transphobe.

Then I don't even know when, maybe the past 10 years? Since I certainly remember a time before all this, it became morphed with a weird, pomo adaptation of queer theory and has certainly snowballed with online social justice movements which thrive on cliques and echo chambery-ness. They thrive on being a cross between 1984 and The Crucible, basically. Complete with "I saw Goody Osburn still follows that TERF we told you all to unfollow!" shenanigans.

And it kind of never got questioned by anyone other than the big bad gender critics - second wave feminists who are vetoed in favour of twitter users and Laverne Cox basically.

Younger feminists, I count my younger self amongst them, just thought they were being fair and moral. That terfs were the same as homophobes. Since twitter really does act like a source, that's why facts like terfs personally murdering seven million trans women an hour is never ever refuted. TERFs are worst than MRAs, religious fundies, governments. And the rational views just never get aired. The madness is completely normalised.

Even outside of that arena, why the trans lobby has so much pull - I think mostly because it's seen as just another civil rights checkbox? So trans people are the next lot of people to gain right, and since the KKK, anti-feminists and homophobes were all awful, everyone is being very accommodating to the trans lobby no matter how extreme because they are trying so hard to not see and not mention the facts. Especially when theres a risk of death threats, no platforming and basically condemnation/ostracism amongst friends for asking questions which sheds doubts on the whole thing. If a lot of your circle are like this, you risk losing them all. A few years ago a lesbian was accused of being a terf and other crimes. Promptly everyone was told to block and delete her from social media, not socialise with her offline, and those who didn't had to be blocked, deleted, banned from attending groups. Months later names would be posted on the facebook page of these groups with why do you still socialise/connect with this toxic terf? This extended to her best friend who was quite senior, being asked to cut ties. Of course, she didn't and neither did I.

Being called a TERF is fine for most and can have no effect, but on uni campuses for example, it's an ex-communication.

PovertyPain · 12/02/2017 18:09

One of my clients told me recently, that there has been a huge increase in the numbers of rapes being reporting to the unversity she tutors at, whilst at the same time there is a huge push to make the toilets AND changing rooms unisex. You couldn't make it up. Attacks on females are on the increase but let's take away their right to a female space in case we offend the trans activists. 😡 And no I'm not saying all men or trans females are violent rapists, but all rapists are men.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 12/02/2017 18:31

On the two Reddit gender critical subgroups there have been various reports from young lesbians that they have been assaulted by TW and that their peers were outraged with the victims when these victims contacted the authorities. Yes, their so-called friends took the line that TW are so much more vulnerable than any other group that the women they attacked should be ostracized for reporting them. It's beyond belief.

venusinscorpio · 12/02/2017 18:44

Great analysis Fauch.

mirrorisnotmyfriend · 12/02/2017 18:58

Great post Fauch.

Feminists who centre women and their issues are the enemy of the left in 2017. Feminism is all about transwomen now, I feel as though they have won.

KatLovesCats · 12/02/2017 19:35

Can I ask what "pomo" means? I've seen it a few times recently and can't work it out.

DeviTheGaelet · 12/02/2017 20:31

Post modernism kat. I don't quite get it but I don't know much about philosophy (or even if it is philosophy Blush)

ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2017 23:20

Pomo is one of those things I intermittently remind myself what its supposed to be about but the meaning slips from my mind. oh yeah. Not something a scientist has much truck with. I think in the last para of the wiki Dan Dennett sums it up pretty well.

DeviTheGaelet · 13/02/2017 07:35

Yep I read that last night errol and totally agree.

Fauchelevent · 13/02/2017 09:58

Dan Dennet does explain it well. Post modern ideas of gender means that everything is up for interpretation, nothing has any concrete meanings. Hence "woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" sufficing as a definition.

The last sentence is especially correct. For TAs, woman is a conversation in which nothing can be confirmed and no one is wrong (except women who don't play along yaknow).