DD's school going co-ed - I'm really annoyed

[SomewhereOutThere]

Am I allowed to talk about a private school issue in FC? I know that can be polarising in and of itself, but my particular issue here is about something I feel strongly about as a feminist so I hope this is okay.

We heard yesterday that DD2's prep school is going fully co-ed. (Currently there are a small number of boys up to year 2, a relatively recent change which came alongside an assurance that the school would be staying single sex to 11.) It won't directly affect DD's lessons - boys are being phased in so her year group will remain all girls until she leaves in 3 years. (Though there will be younger boys in her playground which will change the atmosphere I suspect.)

But I'm annoyed that:

• There was no consultation with existing parents or (seemingly) staff, who were surprised.
• A four page booklet about the change continually refers to adding extra facilities to be able to absorb two 'genders'.
• The four page booklet also explains that staff will get extra training to refresh their prior experience/training in teaching co-ed to encompass 'the different ways in which girls and boys learn and their differing interests, strengths and weaknesses'. Makes me feel like there will be lots of the 'boys like science/girls like stories' bollocks which is bad for girls and boys.
• Most of all, in the whole 4 pages the fact that many girls learn better in an all girl environment, and are more likely to pursue STEM subjects, is not addressed! Nor is the fact that there will now be 3 co-ed prep schools in the town the school is in, an all boys school, and no all-girls school.

We chose this school back when my elder daughter was a toddler because I wanted an all girl environment. DD1 was able to be her zany self at this school - she's maths mad and that was massively encouraged, as was sport - she got into one there that she now plays at a county level. She moved on to an all girls senior school in a nearby city brimming with confidence and loves being just with girls. It makes me sad that the governors don't seem to give any weight to the fact that for over 100 years this school has offered that to girls.

Oh, and as they say themselves, they have an all time high of pupils enrolled. So they are 'doing it from a position of strength'. So I have no idea - despite the 4 pages - why they feel it necessary. Something about the needs of our future demographic after engaging consultants to research the strategic future. It must be right then, since a consultant says so. Nice to know that's what fees have been being spent on. (I say that knowing all about consultancy bullshitting to justify a high fee, since I work in a similar field myself!)

I feel like moving DD2 into the nearby city, since it is clear the new (male) chair of governors at her school doesn't believe in and support the importance of an all-girl education, which is my primary reason for paying private school fees. I've contacted the girl's schools this morning. But it'll mean a massively long journey for her on public transport, and might just be too disruptive at this stage - something the school is counting on, I suspect. Gah!

No.
Don't know.

The school will have made an economic decision to be financially sustainable. Lots of single sex prep schools have done this, so was always a risk when you chose the school. No point in consultation if there was a clear best economic option. Their top priority will likely be attracting parents of boys asap.

You're probably right, Surrey. I would be miffed if I was a parent of a pre-prep girl as I think the first few years of boys in prep will be concentrated on, possibly to the detriment of the girls.
Don't know why parents of boys would choose a former-girls school whose governors are promising (already ) that the leaver destinations of boys at 11 'will be top schools such as Magdalen and Abingdon' when they could put their son in Abingdon Prep or Magdalen junior school (neither of which is oversubscribed at the prep level) at 7 with near 100% chance of getting them into their own senior school though.

Bluntness It's great that your daughter had that experience of mixed and many girls do. But anecdote is not the plural of data and all that. The data shows that girls who are interested in the kind of things that mine are will on average do better in an environment where they are learning without boys.
This doesn't stop them meeting lots of boys socially. My older daughter made lots of male friends, and indeed got a nice boyfriend, through the sport she pursues.

lass
You've quoted two separate things I said as if they directly related to each other. They don't. I wasn't trying to disguise that I pay for my children to have a privilege that many can't afford. Hands up, I do, and I know it.
My dislike of privately owned indy's isn't really relevant to this thread so I won't go into it here.

!> How common is it that a girl in a single sex school has no male relatives around her age, and does no activities that involve the opposite sex?>>

Well my daughter was one, and plenty of the girls don't. In addition not all kids do activities out with the school. Ok the ops did through sport, but genuinely many of them don't. But getting a boyfriend through sport, is not the same as debating in class, working together, with male peers and that's my point. Not they never meet a boy their own age, simply they do not interact with them daily, or even weekly in most cases.

I'd also say all girls can have a tendency to a bitchy environment that is possibly less evident in a mixed school. Don't get me wrong, I sent my daughter to one for over a decade and would do so again, but I am saying they are not without their disadvantages also.

Speaking as someone who has a very successful career in STEM - all the places I have worked pride themselves on being meritocratic and I would say in general that idea of privileged "Rodneys" and the old private school networks are pretty much frowned upon.

The girls in my DD's (mixed) school can be bitchy, probably just as much as in a single sex school.

But when they are DD has the option, which she often takes, of hanging out with the boys for a bit instead, which does give her a bit of a change of atmosphere.

In a single sex school, girls could hang out with non bitchy girls too, unless all the girls are going to be bitchy?

In a single sex school, girls could hang out with non bitchy girls too, unless all the girls are going to be bitchy?

You would hope so. But I think it's often easier for boys to stay completely out of the girls falls outs, so provide more of a break from it.

Again we've gone back to anecdote over data.

I have already linked various studies. here is a round up of some more

Only 12.8% of the STEM workforce in the UK are female.

Women are underrepresented at professorial level in every STEM-related subject in U.K. Universities

In 2013-14 52% of male undergraduates were enrolled on a science course compared to 40% of females.

A recent OECD study found that girls lacked confidence in science and maths, even when their results were as good or better than boys’. In programme for international student assessment (Pisa) scores, UK girls perform worse in science than boys, with the gap being much bigger than in other countries.

And this is just some of the reasons that relate to STEM that made me keen on pursuing an all-girl school environment for my daughters. There are other reasons too.

I don't disagree Bluntness that there are negatives to girls schools too. There are negatives to all schools. But it is a type of education that suits my daughters and it saddens me that girls who live near us won't have it on offer.

My dislike of privately owned indy's isn't really relevant to this thread so I won't go into it here

Well you brought the subject up, to what point I'm not sure.

Aren't most private schools registered as charities anyway but they and your school still has a business to run if the school is to continue

You're right of course I inadvertently caused that derailment.

I raised it to contend the point that the school is a business and will do anything that makes more money. Some are but this one is a charity and the Charity Commission would take a dim view of them closing down to make pizzas!

My DD is in her last year at an all girls' school (not private). Of the schools available in our area, it was simply the one that seemed likeliest to suit her best, we were neutral on single/coed beforehand. Its been a great, supportive place, and I've heard nothing about 'bitchiness' (what a vile term).

Its paradoxical that separating by sex seems to reduce the effect of gender stereotypes. Within the school, they're defined by their individual characters, not by their sex. Sure enough, uptake of stem subjects is good.

(And theres a corresponding excellent boys' school so its fair)

If you've got a school which works, why mess with it? I personally wouldn't have chosen a single sex primary but I can see why the OP is annoyed, coed isn't what they signed up to.

I think you will find the vast majority of private schools are charities. That is why they don't have to charge VAT on fees and why there are the regular calls for them to lose charitable status. They clearly rely on fees not charitable donations to run.

If you are a parent it would make little sense to send your children to one which does not have charitable status and pay an extra 20%.

"That is why they don't have to charge VAT on fees"

Fees are VAT exempt (EU-wide) and that is nothing to do with British charitable status.

They are afraid they wont get to grab their breasts and shout stuff like "nice tits love" and "you'll never make a Physicist !!" or "Computers are for boys, bitch".

Goodness! Some honesty at last.

We got the same letter & I felt the same as you about the wording. Stuff about ensuring the teachers are mentored to make sure they can teach boys and the fact that there will necessarily be a wider range of clubs. What nonsense!

DD1 will not be affected as she's in a higher year group but we were considering moving DD2 there next September and tbh it's put me off the whole school when I really liked it before.

I don't understand the rationale for the change - as you say they weren't short of applicants and now they have lost their unique place as an all-girls primary. We certainly weren't consulted & would have been strongly against it if we had been.

Fees are VAT exempt (EU-wide) and that is nothing to do with British charitable status

It is VAT exempt if provided by an eligible body. To be an eligible body a school outwith the state system is going to need to be a charitable organisation.

I sympathise and am sorry this is happening at your daughter's school.

Sorry to hijack but to the other parents who are impacted by this, what are you going to do? Have been mulling it over more today and am increasingly miffed by it (not least because DD is down to follow her brother there and now am having to think where she could go that doesn't involve us all spending many hours a day in the car).

"
It is VAT exempt if provided by an eligible body. To be an eligible body a school outwith the state system is going to need to be a charitable organisation."

Sorry but that is simply not true.

It to be a school (not a crammer which sells courses individually ), but then fees are exempt,, whether business or charity.

VAT notice 791/30 refers. Education is exempt. 'Closely related' goods and services are exempt. Other parts of the running of the organisation may be subject to VAT, and those which are charities may be able o rely on charitable exempt for these. The stated typical 'value' of being a charity and getting exemption in that category is estimated at £200 per pupil per term. Well lower than the range of variation across schools anyhow (irrespective of whether business or charity)

It doesn't matter whether a private school is a charity or not, it still has to at least break even financially. For a lot of schools that means having very close to zero free places. This one sounds very small to start with so likely in quite a precarious position, which could well be why they're planning to open to boys.

There are over 400 pupils so it is not small for an independent prep school, no. And they're claiming to be in a very strong financial position but who knows. I'll track down their most recent accounts online tomorrow.

scarcelyodd The opinion that you and I share seems to be echoed quite widely. A lot of confusion at what is behind this and why current parents weren't consulted. But I know fewer parents in the pre-prep who will be affected more, and don't know what the general feel is there so much..?
Where do you think you'll look at now for your younger daughter?

Cosmia I spoke to the girls' schools in Oxf today. If those are too far from your location then I'm not aware of any other all girls options, sadly unless you can go as far south as Henley.
I imagine a lot of parents for whom Oxford is out of reach will be going to see CM, StH, OLA and the like to compare them with what current school will be offering. Others will reconsider their village schools since all girls is no longer an option.
Parents wanting their sons to be single sex will continue to have plenty of choice, with MCS/AP/MF all flying so high at the moment. But their sisters will have to be mixed until senior level. Very convenient for all those families. Not.
The junior departments at H and OH will do massively well out of this from those families who can reach Oxf.

xenophile you have described my experience of co ed education! A while back now though!

OP, yes, the accounts will show the true financial picture.

It's upsetting when things happen affecting our DCs' care or education. It was always a risk with this school (one of the disadvantages of choosing private education IME) and it's unfortunate that things are changing at the school that you don't like. Suggest though that since there's really nothing you can do about the management decisions taken and you've decided not to move your DD just yet,your energy and attention might best be focused on supporting her and planning her secondary education.

Year ending 2015 - 5.8 m net assets, 300 k cash, 500 k liabilities is true financial picture. Does anyone know what would be a healthy picture for an indy school with fewer than 500 pupils? Could the liabilities higher than cash just be a quirk of submitting accounts just before the start of a term when all the fees come in from parents? Or is it sign of trouble?

Note to self for future years: check school accounts before committing.