Uncomfortable feelings about the teaching of "consent"

[Tootickyandsnufkin]

I hope I explain this ok. I'm not entirely sure this makes sense, or if I'm expressing something obvious.

Consent comes up a lot on here/MN. Usually the discussion is around whether consent is confusing etc. Everyone is familiar. I hope isn't is prompting the usual debate. But I guess maybe that where it goes.

The idea of teaching "consent" to boys/young men bothers me. I wonder what it says about men that they have to be taught. Then i think about what else we teach our children. Thinking on the go....I guess we work to develop empathy in many areas but how do they develop naturally otherwise? isn't there some sort of innate compassion that stops people, eg, committing acts of violence? Or is it consequences that shapes behaviour. Which of course there is generally a lack of in terms of non consensual sex/sexual acts.

And if we try to teach our sons about consent, are those who have ignored a lack of consent simply those who weren't adequately educated?
Is it depressing to think there are a huge group of boys/men for whom its an educational issue? Or is that a very negative way to think?

I can see how being viewed as a threat isn't a pleasant thing. But it isn't women's fault that men are viewed as a threat, is it?

It isn't just women either. I'm a fairly tall, well-built man, and if late at night there was an elderly gent walking in front of me on a deserted road then I would cross the road to allay any fears he might have of me being a mugger.

I think to expand on my point earlier is that it's empathy towards others that prompts the move to cross the street rather than some sort of collective responsibility of other men's behaviors. Where I come utterly unstuck is how on earth to get men like growapear to decide to be more empathic.

Lets hope all the the black yoofs are reading this and conduct themselves accordingly so as not to scare me or get offended when i avoid them.

To me, it has to be taught as a way of signalling what is actually expected. And that's because the uncomfortable underlying truth is that not every young man grows up in a house where older or younger generations actually agree on the basics of consent.

You really don't have to go far back in history to find a time when the concept of "marital rights" to sex was the social norm. In the eighteenth century, women who were on their own in public - let alone intoxicated - were seen as fair game in sexual terms. Those attitudes linger on - the emphasis on consent is relatively recent, and couldn't really exist without concepts of women having rights.

Are "black yoofs" more likely to be a physical threat to you growapear?

statistically, yes they are.

"Black yoofs" - seriously?

Why are you scared of black people now growapear? Jesus wept.

Why are you scared of black people now growapear? Jesus wept.

For christs sake Dervel I sometimes wonder if you really are as stupid as you seem to be or whether you are just pretending.

statistically, yes they are.

Are they?

If you demonise a group - and encourage fear of that group, say that group should take steps to avoid causing alarm in others. Argue the group only has itself to blame and bears collective responsibility for the way it is treated etc.

you see Dervel ?

So I presume you never walk female friends home, never comment on how short a girl's skirt is, get upset when you see posters advising women not to get drunk/not to walk home alone, do you growapear?

I am generally very wary of pre supposing things about people based on the demographic to which they belong. I would walk a female friend home if she asked me, I would not assume that she would want me to walk her home because she was female and would be frightened of encountering men.

That's a completely stupid example. The relationship to dominant structures of power is totally different between white and black males. There is a long, oppressive history of demonising black people and cultures - and it's been largely white men who have done it. Your example was plain racist, and you know it. Not only that, but to claim on a thread about rape that white men are in some way being victimised is disingenuous in the extreme.

I'm sorry, but in everything you say, you just come over not as a representative of maleness but as someone who is utterly clueless about the issues, arguing off the top of his particularly ill-informed head. There are plenty of men who have taken more time to educate themselves about these issues, who would freely accept that there is such a thing as privilege and such a thing as culture.

growapear it is perfectly human for a women to fear that a man walking behind her might be dangerous - even though he might in reality be a really nice guy. She doesn't know he's a nice guy. So out of concern for her he might want to cross the road. If he is a nice guy that is. If he isn't then he wouldn't give a shit.

I've actually come across your mentality a lot before growapear and I find it fascinating - the way in which a privileged group seems to try to claim victim status as though they envy the ability of the oppressed group to be 'innocent.' I sort of get it, I can see how it might be attractive to consider yourself hard done by rather than to consider yourself to be part of the group that causes the most suffering in the world. But it's pretty sickening too, on a personal level.

clueless about the issues

Would you like me to tell you how you come across Holly ?

Your example was plain racist, and you know it.

My example was indeed racist, as it was meant to be. Your argument that it is not possible to treat white men unfairly because culture is ludicrous.

Sparrow

he way in which a privileged group seems to try to claim victim status

This is to the outside world a description of the mumsnet feminist section.

Oh splendid, racist bullshit as well as endless contrarianism.

But really isn't men who are the oppressed group isn't growapear? I mean how can we even give a shit about 85,000+ women raped a year when men have cross the road because people might think bad things about them???

Poor white men! My heart breaks for them!!

Poor white men! My heart breaks for them!!

Don't you feel sorry for the black men too Sparrow ? Ah - I think i understand, they don't have to cross the road to avoid women because they are black and white men have oppressed them too. Am i catching on ?

Careful - your mask is slipping a bit.

'Am i catching on ?'

No, you're not actually. You're making yourself out to be very very very stupid. I don't actually think it's deliberate, I think you've stuck yourself in an untenable position and now you have to say idiotic things to make out like you believe your own bullshit.

As irritating as I find you growapear it is a very positive thing that people like you engage with feminism. If you actually thought it was as pointless as you make out you wouldn't bother with it. But you feel threatened by it, which is an excellent thing.

I sort of get it, I can see how it might be attractive to consider yourself hard done by rather than to consider yourself to be part of the group that causes the most suffering in the world. But it's pretty sickening too, on a personal level.

Let me try to put this in words you will understand. I am not part of "a group" from which you can usefully deduce anything about my character, likes or dislikes etc on account of my biological sex or the colour of my skin. People who make judgements about other people about whom they know they nothing based on physical characteristics as per my example are the ones with the problem. Who is doing that ? Having identified that I am a man and some men are violent - what can usefully be done to move things forward ? Trying to make me ashamed that I am white ? Telling me I should "check my privilege" and get out the way ?