Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

X post with Sparrowhawk, who is of course right that such things applied in Britain in the past.

Marital rape was only made illegal in 1991, for example.

And courts act in the interest of the children with respect to continuity of the primary carer.

All men benefit from the oppression of women though, ACubed.

Please don't imply that we are "unlucky" in just not knowing the right men. You really don't have to go very far to experience or see male violence, abuse and oppression. It is minimising to suggest otherwise. It also, subtly, implies that if only we'd had better experiences then we would be so much more understanding and accommodating of men i.e. it is our perspective that is wrong, not the fact that systematic oppression occurs.

What they actually have to do is to use that privilege to even out the playing field. The problem is that most men don't want to do that. If I was a man I couldn't be arsed to try either given the tone on this thread. I don't see any practical solutions either. Just seething hatred.

As I said, men could stop doing all those things now. Why don't they?

This is where it gets absurd. How the hell would I know ? Because they got angry ? Because they could ? What blame all men because some men commit terrible acts of violence. Do you look at ISIS and say to your husband - "you could stop that you know, you men" ?

hilbert

sparrow said historically women have been treated like that

I understand some men and women saying things are better now, no need for feminism in the uk etc

But i honestly dont understand why anyone (not referring to anyone on this thread) could argue that historically women have had a fairly shit time of it all over the world

Our rights are also in danger of being removed regularly. You only have to look at the US in terms of rights to abortion (and over here there is plenty of noise about reducing time limits etc).

We basically have these rights because, at the moment, the male dominated powers that be say we are allowed to.

Seething hatred?

Nope.

"If I was a man I couldn't be arsed to try either given the tone on this thread. I don't see any practical solutions either. Just seething hatred."

Please can you C&p the "seething hatred?

And perhaps comment on this "Men could stop using porn, stop buying sex, start doing 50% house and child care, stop hitting women and stop using sexist and objectifying language. They could do all that now.12.04pm January 3 2017"

This is how it used to be in the west, and men didn't change it out of the goodness of their hearts

Why did they change it then ? Were they scared of what women would do to them ? Did they lack the capacity to stamp out women's rights if they really wanted to ?

'What they actually have to do is to use that privilege to even out the playing field. The problem is that most men don't want to do that. If I was a man I couldn't be arsed to try either given the tone on this thread. I don't see any practical solutions either. Just seething hatred.'

This thread isn't about practical solutions. It would be great though if men would solve their own problems for a change and come up with their own solutions rather than waiting for women to hand them to them on a plate. But yes, the hatred thing is a typical response. It's very convenient because it allows men to be the victims and means they don't actually have to do anything.

Bertrand

I replied to your question about why men don't stop all violence now. Maybe you would want to reply to that ?

Ooooh i would like to see some seething hatred on this thread

I dont think i seethingly hate anyone....

Men could stop using porn, stop buying sex, start doing 50% house and child care, stop hitting women and stop using sexist and objectifying language. They could do all that now.12.04pm January 3 2017" In fact Bertrand yours is one of the only posts which states what should be done. So I have no beef with you.

'Why did they change it then ? Were they scared of what women would do to them ? Did they lack the capacity to stamp out women's rights if they really wanted to ?'

I'm really not sure if this is a genuine question. Do you know any history girl?

Why is it that you think women should come up with the solutions, derxa, given that it's men who have created the problems?

Girl- your reply seemed to be saying that men carry on hitting women because if even one of them doesn't stop women will still say "men hit women" so they may as well just carry on.

I assumed that you didn't really mean that. Particularly as you didn't comment on the other points.

It is a genuine question. Men have successfully and brutally stamped out resistance movements that tried to win rights throughout history, especially when they hate said groups as you claim they do. I'm sure you knew this, being a history expert and all.

The issue ACubed is that as Sparrowhawk has said the prevailing theme on here is radical feminism. Nothing else is good enough.

This requires, as I see it, a mindset that all women have a shared life experience and will always be oppressed; that all men have more privilege than any women; that all women are being forced to do unpaid wife work and that no woman can genuinely make her mind up about anything (except those enlightened enough to be radical feminists).

Personally I find it an infantilising, patronising and deeply depressing philosophy. If I had a teenage daughter I would not want her to be influenced by the rad fem views often expressed here and think that is what life/ work has in store for her.

Personally I want equal rights, equal opportunities, easy access to contraception and abortion, and the introduction of the Nordic model leading eventually to full criminalisation of prostitution and an end to any idea that stripping etc is empowering and an acceptance in society that men who go to strip clubs or use prostitutes are as contemptible as drunk drivers.

I also really dislike the views which are often expressed on here which , again to me, seek to deny women have any free agency. This mindset for example involves making excuses for the likes of Miley Cyrus and Nicki Minaj for the appalling videos they make because they are just doing what they have to do under the patriarchy(there was a long thread about that) or the recent thread about Karen Matthews, Tracy Connelly and Myra Hindley, which personally I thought had some shameful posts.

To all those saying men can't be feminists because they don't "get it". That's a sloppy line of argumentation, leaves men open to say women don't "get it" what it's like to be a man (e.g. "look at suicide statistics, predominantly men, you women don't get it, we have it so hard").

"It is a genuine question"

Which I didn't understand.

'It is a genuine question. Men have successfully and brutally stamped out resistance movements that tried to win rights throughout history, especially when they hate said groups as you claim they do. I'm sure you knew this, being a history expert and all.'

So because they haven't successfully and brutally stamped women's resistance movements out, they must have handed women everything on a plate out of the goodness of their hearts?

Bertrand

No - that was not my argument at all. My argument was that individual men have no control over other men they have never met before. The only historically effective way of controlling them is to threaten them with incarceration. Your argument seems to be that "men" could just stop being bad right now if they wanted to, but they don't. This stupid logic could aptly be applied to any act of murder or violence committed anywhere in the world by anyone. So do you turn to tour husband as you watch the war in Syria and ask him why men don't just stop this shit ?

'To all those saying men can't be feminists because they don't "get it". That's a sloppy line of argumentation, leaves men open to say women don't "get it" what it's like to be a man (e.g. "look at suicide statistics, predominantly men, you women don't get it, we have it so hard").'

Of course women don't get what it's like to be a man! Why would they? They may understand intellectually the problems men face, but they can't know what it's like to actually be a man.

Personally I want equal rights, equal opportunities, easy access to contraception and abortion, and the introduction of the Nordic model leading eventually to full criminalisation of prostitution and an end to any idea that stripping etc is empowering and an acceptance in society that men who go to strip clubs or use prostitutes are as contemptible as drunk drivers. Well said.

'This requires, as I see it, a mindset that all women have a shared life experience and will always be oppressed; that all men have more privilege than any women; that all women are being forced to do unpaid wife work and that no woman can genuinely make her mind up about anything (except those enlightened enough to be radical feminists).'

This explains so much! You don't understand radical feminism at all Lass.