Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

Considering that men, for thousands of years, said to women 'you won't have any say at all in anything to do with your life, we will dictate to you what you will do and how you will act,' I think women asking to decide for themselves how to level the societal playing field isn't too much to ask. We're not looking to turn the tables and make men into slaves the way they did to us, after all.

It's possible to support a political movement without having to be central to it. That's what being an ally is.

What about women who are not central to it, or even actively campaigning?
Quite often women come on here and state that they aren't feminists and they are usually asked "do you believe in equality for women? then you're a feminist".
Are women who don't actively do anything to fight for women's rights not feminists?

If men really wanted to they could get rid of most of the need for feminism today

How? Surely changing culture is going to take decades. Powerful men couldn't change it in a day if they wanted to. I think you are right about a lot of men (and some women) not wanting it to change

There is always a sense that men must be persuaded and mustn't be inconvenienced too much - we must cajole and convince them. If men gave a shit that they treated women like garbage for most of history then they'd be only too happy to say 'sorry, yeah, we'll fix things, just tell us what you need,' but they don't really give a shit. They'll grudgingly accept change as long as it doesn't inconvenience them too much and will threaten to revoke that change at any point they see fit.

If men gave a shit that they treated women like garbage

But the problem is actually that most men and women don't think that this is the case, and your view as stated here is controversial (even though you seem to think it is self evident) ?

Men could stop using porn, stop buying sex, start doing 50% house and child care, stop hitting women and stop using sexist and objectifying language. They could do all that now.12.04pm January 3 2017.

'But the problem is actually that most men and women don't think that this is the case, and your view as stated here is controversial (even though you seem to think it is self evident) ?'

So, denying women education, the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to a career, the right not to be raped, the right to custody of their own children, isn't treating women like garbage?

I'm a bit late to the discussion but just want to add my tuppence worth. I think my partner is about as close to being a feminist as a man can be. In our lives there are many small things he does to advocate for feminism - he wanted the dcs to have my name; he does at least 50% of the domestic work; we share childcare; he has rearranged his work in order for me to work too while our children are small, etc. etc. Most significantly, he listens when we discuss things like consent, street harassment, how I feel about trans issues, my experiences of sequel assault as a young woman and so on. He doesn't try to tell me how I should feel and he is willing to learn and to adapt his behaviour. But this is the point: he hasn't lived these things. These issues don't affect him in the way they affect me, so I would hesitate to describe him as a feminist. I've never actually asked him whether he thinks he is though; I will do later.

Sorry but to go to the dictionary definition www.dictionary.com/browse/feminist A feminist is someone who advocates equal rights for women. I feel like it's being over complicated a little bit?

Most of us don't live by dictionary definitions ACubed - it is usually more complicated than that.

I'm a bit a uncomfortable with how men are being generalised on here, I don't think it's very helpful (I'm a woman for the record!). Obv there are infinite issues that are created by men, but to speak to generally about them doesn't sit right with me, and reinforces the 'man hating feminist' stereotype some people have.

I don't think it is that complicated. There are many different branches of feminism and different schools of thought, but if you support equal rights for men and women, you are one whether you label yourself this or not. That's my view anyway, I know a lot will disagree which is obviously fine, and good for a debate.

I think part of the issue is that a few of us, including me, are talking from a radical feminist point of view. I honestly don't see the point in other types of feminism.

Well I support freedom from oppression so already disagree with you ACubed.

Of course it is uncomfortable to talk about how men benefit from the oppression of women. We are supposed to live/love/work with them. How do we square that?

What about women who are not central to it, or even actively campaigning?
Quite often women come on here and state that they aren't feminists and they are usually asked "do you believe in equality for women? then you're a feminist".
Are women who don't actively do anything to fight for women's rights not feminists?

That's a very good point.

I was thinking about the posts saying white people can't be activists for black people. That seems an extraordinary position to take in light of say the active and public roles taken by some white people during the anti apartheid and anti segregation eras, often putting themselves at physical risk. Or the underground train system during the slave era which involved white people.

I don't know if Dr George Tiller and Dr David Gunn called themselves feminists but they were murdered for providing abortions.

As for dictionary definitions not counting, you can't rewrite the dictionary just to suit yourself (as is said on every thread here about transgender issues)

I'm really confused Lass - isn't your position that no one should be a feminist?

Of course I support freedom from oppression, and yes lots of men do oppress women but not all - that's the part I think just needs phrasing a bit differently, is that unreasonable? I just feel quite strongly that men should not be excluded from feminism in any way, maybe I'm lucky in that I've grown up around feminist men and co-habit with one.

I don't know why you are directing questions at me Sparrowhawk You have already told me how tedious I am and you know all about me.

Men could stop using porn, stop buying sex, start doing 50% house and child care, stop hitting women and stop using sexist and objectifying language.

The trouble seems to be that although a great many men already do (or don't do) all these things, as long as there are any men doing them, you will still be able to say "men beat women".

Ah so you don't want to answer the question (seeing as you've avoided answering it twice). I find it really bizarre that you're arguing about who can and can't be feminists when you're so anti-feminist yourself. It's almost as if you're just doing it to be contrary.

TheSparrowhawk "So, denying women education, the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to a career, the right not to be raped, the right to custody of their own children, isn't treating women like garbage?"

Do you live in say the Middle East? If not, none of those is applicable. In fact after a divorce, women have more rights to custody than men. Or education, in several western countries now more women have university degrees, and girls do better at school.

In what western country are girls not allowed to go to school, do not have the right to vote, are not allowed to own property, cannot have a career, rape is not illegal, cannot have custody of their children?

'Of course I support freedom from oppression, and yes lots of men do oppress women but not all - that's the part I think just needs phrasing a bit differently, is that unreasonable? I just feel quite strongly that men should not be excluded from feminism in any way, maybe I'm lucky in that I've grown up around feminist men and co-habit with one.'

Regardless of whether men actively oppress women, they still benefit from a situation where women are oppressed. They could refuse to participate in a society that oppresses women, but they don't, they carry on and they reap the benefits. I can totally understand why they do that, but as long as they do that, they are not feminists.

"The trouble seems to be that although a great many men already do (or don't do) all these things, as long as there are any men doing them, you will still be able to say "men beat women"."

Well, while two women a week still die through domestic violence, then yes, I can.

As I said, men could stop doing all those things now. Why don't they?

Feminism is globally applicable, Hilbert

'Do you live in say the Middle East? If not, none of those is applicable. In fact after a divorce, women have more rights to custody than men. Or education, in several western countries now more women have university degrees, and girls do better at school.

In what western country are girls not allowed to go to school, do not have the right to vote, are not allowed to own property, cannot have a career, rape is not illegal, cannot have custody of their children?'

This is how it used to be in the west, and men didn't change it out of the goodness of their hearts, women had to fight for every single change. Given this is where we started from, if men wanted to genuinely level the field and remove all of the effects of these past inequalities they could listen to what women want and make the changes. But, as ever, they don't. Women still have to fight for every little bit. That was my point.