Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

"Radical" doesn't mean hard line in the context of feminism. I think (not an expert) it's called radical meaning "from the root" and refers to the fact that radical feminists believe that women can't achieve equality through changes in existing social structures because they were set up to benefit the patriarchal system. So restructuring is required to achieve equality.
I'd argue some of the things you hear on threads like this, that women in the west have equality because we have equal rights in law, suggest radical feminism is the only way forward because despite equality being enshrined in law, women still aren't equal. That does suggest something more fundamental is needed.
I think some of the ideas put forward about use it or lose it paternity leave are radical. As are all-women shortlists in politics or a 50/50 entrance quota for stem courses.

That really stirred me Sparowhawk, thanks for writing!
That would benefit both sexes too.

In terms of a plan going forward, I think we are pretty much at the stage where all energies are going into ensuring we (society generally, feminists specifically) do not lose what gains we have already made!

Women's refuges, the right to abortion, campaigning against the sexual objectification of women, fighting gender-stereotyping - all these things arguably looked more positive at the end of the 1970s and in the early 1980s than now. The existence of refuges are threatened financially, if not ideologically; while gender-stereotypes are actually reinforced by those purporting to challenge them.

That is before you consider that women in their 40s and 50s are really the frontier generation of women being in large numbers in the workplace. Every woman who has held down a job and raised a family, negotiating work-family balance and marital dynamics as well as remaining gender-based professional prejudices has been contributing day in day out to feminist goals. Every woman who has challenged the notion that success is long hours culture work dependent and carved her own path has contributed to feminist goals. That is before you get to the women who work in fields primarily geared towards advancing women's rights, protection and legal status, or indeed, safe-guarding the ones we have.

So, to the question, what is the plan? Probably keep on keeping on.

Thanks for answering sparrow

I'll admit it's not the approach I take but I do appreciate the answer.

For example my daughter was invited to a "princess party". The mum of the birthday girl works full time (very high flying) the dad works part time and is very much the hands on parent.
I would have felt a complete fool trying to explain that they are exacerbating gender stereotypes, when everyday that mum shows her kids just how much she can do at work and everyday the dad shows the kids just how great he is raising and educating them.

I prefer to look at the bigger picture rather than the small details. Not saying my way is right and your way is wrong but I couldn't do the nit picking over small details.

I think some of the ideas put forward about use it or lose it paternity leave are radical

I think this is a fabulous idea too. I wouldn't have said it was radical
I think what could be happening here is people identifying as a particular brand of feminist and then claiming the bits they like as their brand of feminism.

I'm not talking about 'nit picking' or berating mothers over children's parties. What would that achieve?

That involves not accepting boys/girls men/women being separated in terms of colours, toys, expectations, treatment, education, outcome etc. That involves understanding and challenging discrimination wherever it happens, no matter how 'petty.'

Sorry sprarrow I think I must have read more into you post than you intended.
So you have no issue with a lot of small girls wearing pink and dressing as princesses?

Of course not. The issue is if the only option for girls is to be a princess (look at older Disney films - women are always helpless damsels waiting to be rescued) or that boys can never have pink and sparkly parties. There is nothing at all wrong with playing princesses - the problem is when playing princesses is something only for girls and embarrassing for boys (because being a girl is embarrassing).

The issue is if the only option for girls is to be a princess

To be fair a princess party does pretty much leave "princess" as the only option for girls. I don't remember any boys being there who weren't in nappies.

So what was the "challenge it no matter how petty" referring to?

Referring to = refer to

An example would be the let toys be toys campaign lettoysbetoys.org.uk/

That involves understanding and challenging discrimination wherever it happens, no matter how 'petty

Ok I read something very different into your post. I didn't think you meant support a campaign when you said challenging discrimination wherever it happens.

Apologies once more.

Like I said, I don't consider a princess party to be a form of discrimination. However if a friend said she wouldn't let her son have a princess party and asked my opinion I'd give it.

I think what could be happening here is people identifying as a particular brand of feminist and then claiming the bits they like as their brand of feminism.
Yes. Or people are throwing out good ideas about feminism because they don't like associating with the rad-fem label.
Use it or lose it paternity leave is a radical idea in my opinion because it's not acting in existing social norms, it's using new structures (leave targeted solely at men) to try to overturn an existing social norm.
The liberal view would be to assume that because SPL exists and can be used by either parent, that provides a choice and so if inequality remains it's by choice.
I think, I might be wrong.

In terms of princess parties, clearly it would be extremely rude and judgmental to pass a comment on another patent throwing a princess party.
Questioning why little girls want princess parties, and what society could do to provide role models for girls that aren't of the "princess" ilk is OK and I think that's what sparrow means.

I think that sounds like my basic understanding of rad and liberal feminism devi

No idea what i am but to me its centuries worth of messages to 'overcome' maybe a more back to basics message would work rather then the "everything is equal you just make bad choices schtick" that i see

I do challenge things with my friends, in a kind supportive way. For example when my friend was looking for a job I pointed out to her that it was fine to expect her DH to step up and share childcare. She later said that if I hadn't said that she would have twisted herself in knots trying to get a job that didn't encroach at all on her DH's career. Another friend was stressed with her inlaws so I said she should tell her DH to deal with them and she did - less stress for her. I always challenge attitudes that men don't see mess etc.

It sounds like the main way I differ from you sparrow (no idea if you will agree). Is I'm not to fussed about the small stuff.
Much more interested in equal pay and education stuff.

More of a tinker with what we've got (like take it or leave it paternity) kind of approach.
Like the old Disney princess movies. The newer princesses are an improvement, you could just ban the making of new princess films but making the new ones better seems to be a pretty decent solution.

No one wants to ban movies.

There is no small stuff, it's all part of the same thing. There is absolutely no point in allowing girls to receive subtle negative messages their entire lives and then expecting them to be unaffected as adults. You have to tackle all of it as it all contributes.

Or people are throwing out good ideas about feminism because they don't like associating with the rad-fem label

To be fair there are bits of the rad fem label that don't appeal (at least to me). I personally think a man can be a feminist. A lot of the rad fems seem to think a man can be an ally but not a feminist.

When I asked about the "plan" for rad feminism - it all seems to be stuff a man can do.

Do you think the majority of men would be happy to host a princess party for their son?

No one wants to ban movies

I wasn't actually accusing anyone of wanting to ban movies.

There is no small stuff, it's all part of the same thing

Disagree. Some stuff is much smaller than other stuff.

There is absolutely no point in allowing girls to receive subtle negative messages their entire lives and then expecting them to be unaffected as adults. You have to tackle all of it as it all contributes

Ok back to what's the plan for stopping it? I'm planning to put things in context. Example I loved the Famous Five as a kid, they were great but so sexist. I absolutely would let my daughter read them but would explain they are very old fashioned and life isn't like that now.

Letting your daughter read Famous Five and explaining the sexism is a radical feminist act. You don't see the message in those novels as 'small stuff' to be ignored.

The plan for stopping it is exactly what you've said - highlighting it, explaining it, challenging and educating. It's not rocket science.

Imo
wearing pink = small stuff

all the housework being done by women (and it was all, would have taken hours upon hours) = pretty big deal.