Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

They denied the vast majority of men "the vote" as well. So they must hate them as well ? Men have killed many millions of other men - how do men feel about men ? The argument seems abstract beyond any usefulness.

Lass ok well that's a famous GG quote... don't think it appeared here.
Opression is complex. Does it stem from hate or something else?

hibert

Oh man this is confusing

I thought you said that sparrow had said or infered that men hate women

Might be implied....

And that was what i was looking for and subsequently couldn't find

'They denied the vast majority of men "the vote" as well. So they must hate them as well ? Men have killed many millions of other men - how do men feel about men ? The argument seems abstract beyond any usefulness.'

Ok, so the fact that no women at all were allowed to vote in the UK until 1918 is completely unremarkable, we shouldn't think about it at all?

Sorry to answer your question the noun "men" is used to denote a group of people who engage in hateful acts of murder and rape against women. If one is not to infer from this that said group hate the other, what are they to conclude ?

Was to Rufus

girlwith Yes men kill and murder in far greater numbers. But feminism is concerned by women you've introduced an MRA straw man right there.

Thinking about it is one thing. Concluding that "men hate women" and declaring that this is useful, is another.

It's not poor argumentation, it's what I think!

It's what people have used as an argument...

Who said men hate women???

Yes it's what people have used as an argument Hilbert. I still don't get what your point is!

Thanks girl

I think as i dont hold with the "all feminists hate men" bit then the "men hate women" bit has passed me by

I dont think that men as a class hate women as a class

I do believe that throughout history women have been seen as inferior and thats shitloads of bias to get though for both men and women

I provide advice and practical resources directly to women in prostitution (and porn) as an active member of a Survivors of prostitution Organization
Well that is clearly laudable. I run a farm with the help of 3 other women and my DS.

Sorry, i thought it was accepted feminist thinking that "men" as a class, "hate" women. Perhaps that is very much a minority view ?

It's a view point which I have seen expressed often on FWR - whether it is a minority view or not I have no idea.

Wrt to the vote, men denied votes to people they deemed to be inferior, which included men under 30 who didn't own property and women.

My belief is not that men hate women but that they see them as inferior.

Am I alone in suspecting that Hilbert may be one of those posters who thinks that if he (or possibly she) repeats the words and phrases "illogical" and "badly argued" frequently enough, that will in fact turn perfectly well expressed and argued previous posts into "illogical and badly argued."

It's just that when a certain type of poster bandies the word "logical" around, my experience is that they rarely are interested in actual logic - you know, formal validity, conclusions following from premises, issues of soundness and completeness, the complexities of logic as applied to arguments expressed in natural language. They usually mean it in the sense of "some magic something that men's utterances have and women's utterances lack" - or as a wonderful post once put it, "the testicles of objectivity."

I'm not seeing any actual engagement in the question from Hilbert, just repeated assertions that we're all illogical and make no sense. Which kind of makes me conclude, "Hilbert, mate, it's not us, it's you."

You could be right Het, but I just couldn't understand what point Hilbert was making at all.

My belief is not that men hate women but that they see them as inferior.
Well some men might think I'm inferior but they wouldn't dare say it to my face

:) They may not say it to your face but it's said loud and clear in every government cabinet, every CEO line up, in the memorial statues across the world, even in Wikipedia where the entries are mostly about men.

Things are changing, but not quickly enough, and there is the constant danger of things falling back to the way they were.

It's not poor argumentation, it's what I think! & Yes it's what people have used as an argument Hilbert.

I give up.

M0stlyHet hi to you too. Just read my post above: "It's not poor argumentation, it's what I think! & Yes it's what people have used as an argument Hilbert."

But hey, because I question someone who shares your opinion, I must be a troll or whatever.

If it makes you feel better.

Hilbert
The essence of your posts might be clearer if you were to embolden or use quotation marks when you're quoting previous posts. That said, I still find them somewhat incoherent.
Is English your first language?

Het didn't say you were a troll, hilbert.

I've been at work so very behind sorry! I wasn't implying anyone was unlucky or denying all the abuse etc women suffer at the hands of men, that's not what I was saying t all. It all boils down to your definition of feminism, mine is straightforward and is inclusive to everyone. I can totally respect your views that only women should represent themselves as a group, and the other points made, but I have always had a very simple view of it that a feminist is someone who thinks men and women should be treated equally. My mum actually wrote Feminisn for beginners so am used to the old school view too, but I think shutting people out of a movement, even is they don't fully comprehend it, isn't constructive.

Sorry for all the typos my hands are frozen!

bertrand

Men could stop using porn, stop buying sex, start doing 50% house and child care, stop hitting women and stop using sexist and objectifying language. They could do all that now.12.04pm January 3 2017

This was with regard to men stopping discrimation imediately.

I don't disagree with the things men should stop doing I'm just more interested in how it can be achieved.

Men don't have a hive mind, they aren't going to just suddenly on mass stop doing all those things you mentioned (not all men do these things obviously).

Sadly you can't change change the world just by wishing it was different.
That's the main thing I struggle with with radical feminism. There's lots of talk about how the world should be but not very much on how this change should be done.