Why do people get so defensive over feminist issues?

[amispartacus]

'I write them because my handwriting is neater' when discussing Christmas cards.

"I didn't like my surname" when discussing name changing.

"There's no issue with stereotyping".

It's amazing how defensive people get when feminism is discussed and how much justification goes on. Sometimes you wonder if people can't see it - and think you are making a fuss about nothing.

Lass so it's a quality you've inherited/learnt from your mother and grandfather? How could this be taught to more women and girls?

On name changing, giving up work, having a cleaner etc, never agonised about any of them

Did you put any thought into why you changed your name and gave up work? Or did you just say I am going to change my name and give up work?

Giving up work is a big decision for anyone to make with massive ramifications. Obviously many people (mainly women) do it - I just wonder how much discussion goes on and how much 'influence external factors have?

Which is a discussion had on here and on MN many times.

It's not fair though. Men take less of a social hit for failure to write cards than women

I don't write cards (Xmas) there has been no fall out. Maybe I've trained my friends and family to have low expectations

What's your situation then OP?

Do you work
Have a partner
Have children

Did you put any thought into why you changed your name and gave up work? Or did you just say I am going to change my name and give up work?

I didn't change my name or give up work. It did not occur to me to do either. I like my name and my career is very important to me. Financial independence was and is very important to me. We don't have a joint b.ank account.

People get defensive when they feel they are getting b picked on.

If you are experiencing b a lot of defensiveness it could be useful to look at your own communication style.

If you are experiencing b a lot of defensiveness it could be useful to look at your own communication style

I'm not experiencing it. I see it on threads.

Ok then.

Lass so it's a quality you've inherited/learnt from your mother and grandfather? How could this be taught to more women and girls?

Combination of possibly the right time and circumstances. A state school that invested heavily in time and effort in its top 10% bright boys and girls at the expense of the rest; family who just assumed I'd do well , a mixture of determination and hard work if it was something to my benefit and indifference and laziness to things which aren't; not much interest in "what will people think"

I just find it a bit surprising how many women come to decisions that are socially rewarded and promoted entirely without context or socialisation. It's a bit of a thinker, really, because you'd expect a bit less uniformity when people are making completely independent and context free decisions.

you'd expect a bit less uniformity when people are making completely independent and context free decisions.

I agree. I'm sure that there are people who, even in a world without gender bias etc would decide to change their name to that of their partner, write all the Xmas cards for the family etc etc. What makes this a feminist issue is that in our society most females and few males choose to do this, which begs the question of why females are more likely than males to make this choice.

Most of us like to think that we are in control of our own decision making and, in the absence of overt/obvious rules/orders telling us what choices to make it is fairly easy to think that we do. Being questioned on aspects of our family life/relationships feels like a personal slight and so gets a very defensive response.

Also, in lots of cases I think that the reasons given for these choices are true. However, we don't often think about why they are true. For example, I know lots of men who would not write legibly if left to write the Xmas cards (or would just 'forget'). Could it be that girls grow up playing at doing these things and wanting to emulate their mothers who make sure that cards are all written and neatly presented whereas boys don't? Could it be that women feel that they will be judged if cards are not sent or look messy and rushed whereas men don't feel this pressure? Or is there a biological reason why more women than men have neat handwriting (and if there is some biological issue impacting fine motor skills of men how come there are more male surgeons/engineers etc than female)?

The name change thing is interesting too. I think most women grow up assuming that they will change their name so it doesn't seem a big deal to do it and they probably think more about whether they like their current name/what name they would prefer than men who accept it as something that will just never be changed. There's also an admin hassle in a woman not changing her name (confusion over name not matching husband and/or children) or a man changing his. Speaking personally, on the face of it I took DHs name because mine was quite dull and I felt no link to my father's family history, whereas DH did feel a link to his father's history and we wanted out DC to have the same name as us. At the time I never really thought about why I wanted us to all share a name, or what other options might be available- given totally free choice our current surname would definitely not have been first choice.

I think I should have said in my OP about when the male and female are faced with the same decision. Such as writing cards, name changing. Not one that is purely a female choice but a joint decision.

I bet the handwriting one probably does reflect better handwriting. But then again, if it's always one person doing it, does the other person get practice?

Oh - and I live with DS and am separated so DS I make the decisions in isolation as I only have me and DS to think about.

Writing Christmas cards once a year is not really handwriting practice!

Also - it's usually women who are main carers of children. It's usually women who are primary school teachers. Learning to write is a very important skill for young children and it's focused on by main carers and teachers. Women. So perhaps right from when we learn to write we learn that caring about handwriting is a female thing.

I have rarely heard a man say they hate their surname - but of course, it's not a topic usually discussed by men.

I've only ever heard it said by women in discussion about marriage name changing!
However, all girls will grow up with the knowledge that their name will or can be changed at marriage. Why would boys write "Mr X Thompson, Smith, etc". because that's not something that will happen (OK, it does happen now, but never did in the past). Boys/men might have hated their name, but short of deedpoll they couldn't change it so why even consider it?
I do think the handwriting thing is an excuse though. Plenty of men have perfectly acceptable handwriting. If someone doesn't get a card, the man will shrug it off, the wife will most likely be blamed, so she feels pressure to do it. I find expectation to receive cards silly anyway, and wouldn't blame the woman for it by default.

There's also an admin hassle in a woman not changing her name (confusion over name not matching husband and/or children) or a man changing his.

What hassle would that be?

And as for the "family must all have the same name" justification do all divorced mothers who re-marry and take their new husband's surname change their children's surnames?

I agree with lass, it's far more admin hassle to change your name than not. I don't know why you'd think it would be more difficult for men to change their name.

"It drives me mad and to be honest you can see why some women have an issue with feminism if all that happens is they are spoken down to and told they are wrong and stupid."

I think part of the issue is that often (not always) people hear "You are wrong and stupid" when all that's being asked is "I wonder why we as women behave in this particular way?" A lot of people never think about how they've been socialized, and it can be shocking to realize that what they might have always thought of as free choices aren't quite as free as they thought. And a response to shock is sometimes to lash out. Sometimes to refuse to think about it any more.

Incidentally, I do actually think that feminists are called "wrong and stupid" on Mumsnet far more often than non feminists are!

Dh hated his surname

He wanted to change it on marriage but he just couldnt take his fathers anger at the whole idea

I make him write all the envelopes for the christmas cards...i hate writing envelopes, we only write to my friends and family and a few of the 70 year old plus people in his family

I fully appreciate that a lot of things i do and have done are down to conditioning

What hassle would that be?

I should probably have been clearer. What I meant was name change for a woman on marriage is expected so the process is widely understood and fairly simple, for a man to change his name would require constant explanation (at least round here it would, where work and schools etc seem to have difficulty getting their heads round women changing their names back after divorce). Similarly I know several women who are married but kept their name and find that their DCs schools, nursery, sportsclubs etc for the DC seems utterly confused by the concept- they are either referred to as Mrs Hisname or the DC are referred to as Little Hername (even of actually it is double barrelled), so the admin hassle I meant was constantly having to correct forms/letters etc.

As for why it's so important for all the family to have the same name, other than the fact that it's expected so easier for others to get it right, several years and 2 DC on I don't think this is a big deal. But when considering marriage I truly thought it was- I think this is evidence of the way that lots of us accept the social norms as our choice.

Well sometimes its more trouble than its worth when you have been brought up to please people and keep the peace.
Most women like being liked at some level at least... and in this sexist society women are liked when they are sweet and agreeable.
Im pretty traditionally feminine in presentation. And i get alot of self esteem from that. People like it. And although i know some of it must be more what was expected of me rather than my free choice i an just too damn tired to be constantly challenging expectations against what feels like my natural inclination.
I have strong views about things and i will not just agree with people in conversation for the sake of it and so i think i do my bit in that area. And i do get massive backlash for not just agreeing with people.
So when it comes to how traditional i am in other ways i dont want to waste energy trying to fight against that.
When people criticise my traditional 'choices' (you took your husbands name, you got married in a white dress, you gave up paid work to look after your child) it does hurt a little because i do identify as a feminist and i try my bloody best.
Its like when people have a go at you when you are a vegetarian and you ate gelatin like it undoes everything you ever did or something.
Sometimes life doesnt present you with the opportunities to be a feminist superstar! We do live in a sexist society and sometimes that means that to get anywhere you have to live with some sexism and fall in line with some stereotypes. Fr example; my husband is a lot older than me, a lot better educated and a lot higher paid and so i have been the one to give up my job to take care of our child and in doing so end up doing the majority of housework etc

I didn't encounter any difficulties keeping my surname and my son having his father's surname (I wish I had used my surname for my son as it is a nicer name)

I'm struggling to imagine what all these difficulties with forms and confusion were. It really can't be that novel a concept for a school or a medical practice.

All correspondence from my son's school was addressed to Ms Me and Mr Him- the names given at enrollment. In the class lists of the names of my son's class mates probably around only 50% were Mr and Mrs Same name. Quite a few of the parents had academic or medical titles - the school had no problem in understanding little Johnny's parents might be say Mr X and Dr Y or that I was my son's mother.

Stealth boast here, was talking to ds1 (6) about names as I've been testing going from DH name to double barrelled. He announces that he'll be taking his (female) best friends name when they get married

I think part of the issue is that often (not always) people hear "You are wrong and stupid" when all that's being asked is "I wonder why we as women behave in this particular way?"

Thanks Bertrand, that's what I've been saying and I really think it is the case most of the time.

I agree Trills and Bertrand. (Though I was once called stupid on here, because only stupid women would change their name on marriage according to a pp who refused to consider that there were plenty of genuine, good reasons to change one's name)