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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Shannon Mathews

391 replies

user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 07:36

This was a shocking case. The child was without a doubt a victim in terrible circumstances. Her own Mother stashing her away under the bed of her partner...drugging her, lying to the public and to her friends about such an awful thing.

But.

Does anyone here think that the press and the public demonised her in a far worse fashion than criminals who do worse have been?

She was pilloried, called terrible names...really made into a sort of figurehead for everything "unwomanly" when there are plenty of men who commit arguably worse crimes and who get away without the public disgrace.

Yes she did a truly awful thing but the fact that she was

A: A woman
B: Working Class
C: Ignorant
D: Unattractive

All added up to ensure that she was the perfect example of a demon woman. Can anyone expand or tell me more about this sort of thing? Do you agree with me? Are there other cases which are similar?

OP posts:
HalfShellHero · 12/12/2016 11:50

*been had..

Thisjustinno · 12/12/2016 11:51

In reference to KM I do agree with what PPs said about it also being about how people hate to be duped and made fools of, the embarrassment of being conned is really powerful.

HalfShellHero · 12/12/2016 11:55

I think its more classism than sexism ...

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/12/2016 11:57

I'm not buying at all that public reaction to KM is due to embarrasment at having been conned.

TheMagicFarawaySleeps · 12/12/2016 12:00

The comments about lack of jobs in the area due to Thatcher's decimation of industry would be valid. Except there were and are jobs in the Dewsbury Area and roundabout, so I fail to see how that has any baring on the KM case.

2014newme · 12/12/2016 12:03

She is a demon. That's why she has been demonised. Pure evil, can anyone here imagine doing that to their own child? The kids had a terrible life anyway, notes begging for food were found in the house from the kids etc.
Nothing but contempt for her hope she rots in jail.

Original poster
user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 12:04

MrsJayy and it does lie with her. I'm looking at this from a cold perspective through the medium of Feminism.

OP posts:
QuimReaper · 12/12/2016 12:05

Not her lack of intelligence user, her lack of even the most basic moral scruples. It's like she doesn't even understand in theory why what she did was so wrong, and it's near-impossible to have any sympathy with that.

Original poster
user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 12:11

At the end of the day, the woman...Karen Mathews was supposedly someone with a learning disability...that according to The Independent anyway.

She was suspected to have got the idea for the kidnap from an episode of Shameless...this seems to be the action of a woman who was not only a terrible parent but also quite vulnerable herself.

It's like something a child would dream up.

OP posts:
MrsJayy · 12/12/2016 12:12

I do not think this is a feminism debate and i dont think we should blindly support Karen Mathews because she is female.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/12/2016 12:12

MrsJayy and it does lie with her. I'm looking at this from a cold perspective through the medium of Feminism

And that would include the particularly infantilisating view that no matter how badly a woman behaves we must (a) find some excuse for her and (b) reporting or commenting on it is anti-woman ?


MrsJayy · 12/12/2016 12:14

Shannon and the other children were Vulnerable Km knew what she was doing

sushisack · 12/12/2016 12:14

This is all a bit of a reach, I do think the reaction to female criminals is different to those of male ones, particularly murderers, purely because they're more rare. Just as there is always a big furore about child murderers.

I do think Maxine Carr was demonised probably more than she should have been, probably because the press didn't labour the point that she thought him innocent, it's a more interesting story for the press if they thought she was complicit.

And I get really sick of people claiming Myra Hindley was easily manipulated, she was an intelligent sociopath in my opinion, to claim she was somehow duped into murdering children is pretty offensive.

BratFarrarsPony · 12/12/2016 12:15

I agree Lass - this version of feminism doesn't do women any favours does it? WE are all responsible for ourselves in the end.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/12/2016 12:15

Oh my OP. I've just seen your post at 12.11. I don't usually like the "wow, just wow" approach but in this case it's all that springs to mind.

sushisack · 12/12/2016 12:16

I don't really understand why you're bending over backwards to defend some of these women OP, it's not really a good or useful use of feminist thought! They're bad people who did bad things!

Original poster
user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 12:18

I will accept the thoughts.....I suspect you're mainly right that this isn't something that needs to have any light shone on it really.

But I was and am interested in the way women are treated when they commit crimes. I just wanted a debate really. And possibly to learn something.

OP posts:
MrsJayy · 12/12/2016 12:20

So she watched a Tv programme and because of her reported learning difficulties this makes her vulnerable ?

QuimReaper · 12/12/2016 12:29

I do think it's an interesting subject user but I'm not sure KM is the right cypher for the discussion, since both her crime and her attitude towards it are so singular.

I also don't think it's fruitful to start down the path of citing learning disabilities as mitigating factors in this kind of crime. I agree that she doesn't seem to have understood the reality of the situation, but to me (and I'd venture to most people) that points to a chilling and mercenary lack of empathy rather than a sympathetic victim. It makes it worse, not better that she did these things so casually: the instinct to protect your children from harm is an absolutely basic human one, which learning disabilities don't diminish.

DeepanKrispanEven · 12/12/2016 12:33

The reason Hindley and Brady is so prominent and notorious is because they refused to say where the children were they also kept themselves notorious

I don't think that's so. I'm ancient enough to remember the original trial and, trust me, the reports were uniquely horrifying. I don't remember other trials around that time to anything like the same extent, even people like the Krays and the Great Train Robbers. Brady and Hindley remained prominent and notorious even before the issue of further murders came up, and before Hindley started campaigning for release. The tabloids always seemed to have a particular fascination with Hindley, and her name was the one always brought up in relation to other child murders or stories about female criminals. A lot of it had to do with the notorious picture of her, but I do think it was because there was a particular fascination and horror around the fact that she was a woman who had participated in such awful crimes, where that wouldn't necessarily have been the case had Brady had a male accomplice.

Elendon · 12/12/2016 12:44

But I was and am interested in the way women are treated when they commit crimes. I just wanted a debate really. And possibly to learn something.

I think this is a valid point for discussion. Women are treated more harshly for crimes committed. Take for example, family annihilators, which are nearly always men. The usual msm response is to see the family as his possession, they are always talked about as wife and children. He has some mental health disorder. Shock that such a lovely neighbour, friend, family member could possibly do such a thing.

Yet, Karen Matthews is now labelled the worst mother in Britain. There is no perspective. What she did was wrong and despicable, but she was helped by her male partner. Did he get the same treatment? Was he branded the worst stepfather in Britain?

Women who do crimes with men are always treated worse, but men who do crimes with women are somehow the victim in all of this.

Elendon · 12/12/2016 12:48

the instinct to protect your children from harm is an absolutely basic human one

So why does this statement just apply to women? Men are human too.

QuimReaper · 12/12/2016 13:13

Elendon eh? Who said it did?

QuimReaper · 12/12/2016 13:16

Women who do crimes with men are always treated worse, but men who do crimes with women are somehow the victim in all of this.

Which men get the victim treatment?

Elendon · 12/12/2016 13:21

Lass And that would include the particularly infantilisating view that no matter how badly a woman behaves we must (a) find some excuse for her and (b) reporting or commenting on it is anti-woman ?

And yet there are loads of excuses for men who chop and shoot and knife their partners and children to death. Some are even buried along side them.

Clodagh Hawes for example

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/craicnet/2793892-Clodagh-Hawes-family-speakout

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