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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shannon Mathews

391 replies

user1477282676 · 12/12/2016 07:36

This was a shocking case. The child was without a doubt a victim in terrible circumstances. Her own Mother stashing her away under the bed of her partner...drugging her, lying to the public and to her friends about such an awful thing.

But.

Does anyone here think that the press and the public demonised her in a far worse fashion than criminals who do worse have been?

She was pilloried, called terrible names...really made into a sort of figurehead for everything "unwomanly" when there are plenty of men who commit arguably worse crimes and who get away without the public disgrace.

Yes she did a truly awful thing but the fact that she was

A: A woman
B: Working Class
C: Ignorant
D: Unattractive

All added up to ensure that she was the perfect example of a demon woman. Can anyone expand or tell me more about this sort of thing? Do you agree with me? Are there other cases which are similar?

OP posts:
BeyondIBringYouGoodTidings · 20/12/2016 19:32

When I say obedience to authority could apply to both the holocaust and Hindley (and reference milgram), I am merely suggesting they are on the same spectrum, not that they are the same.

Thisjustinno · 20/12/2016 20:08

It doesn't matter who the 'authority figure' is - most human beings would not be directly, personally involved in the torture and murder of human beings - particularly children - whatever the circumstances.

I'm saying it is irrelevant whether she would have done it without him. The fact is she did. And there are millions of people who wouldn't have been involved regardless of how much they loved someone or were influenced by them. So she is equally as guilty in the crimes. She had free choice, she chose to be involved and she seemed to have enjoyed that in some way or another.

I think anyone is capable of murder given a 'perfect storm' of circumstances. Not everyone is capable of abusing and murdering children involving a great degree of planning. That is something that is inherent in a person and can't be forced by another. It's either there or it isn't. If two people meet and their dynamic results in that; they are both as guilty.

Brady was convicted of relatively petty crimes before he met Hindley. He might have gone on to murder alone or he might have met Hindley, someone that fed his own dark impulses, embraced that side of him and encouraged it with fantasies of her own that led to serial murders when if he'd met someone else that didn't - no-one would have died.

David Smith (who knew them both) thought she was the worse of the two. I don't think that's true but I do think it was the dynamic between them that was unique and if they hadn't met, we probably wouldn't know who either of them are.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 21/12/2016 10:09

I think Shannon went to live with her Dad as far as I recall.

Possibly. He was given her for a while but not sure it was permanent.
I see him around from time to time and he's never with any women of around the right age.

Twogoats · 21/12/2016 19:38

Poor Shannon. I hope she's somewhere safe. Flowers

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/12/2016 21:17

I agree, poor Shannon.

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2016 08:27

"The only reason anyone can be actively involved in the sexual torture and murder of children is because they are gratified by it. Any other motive is inconceivable. "

You mean you don't want to consider any other motive? And anyway, nobody's saying she's not bad or didn't deserve her punishment, only that she would not have done what she did had she not met him and that he was the leader.
We do know of cases of child abuse by women who were not paedophiles as far as we knew. I'm thinking of the relatively recent case of the three or so women working in nurseries who took photos of children to please their paedophile boyfriend.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/12/2016 22:07

Gwen your last post is appalling.

JoeJoe80 · 22/12/2016 23:28

Gwen that's total arse. People who abuse and take pornographic photos of children are pedophiles - even if they're doing it for someone else. How can you excuse this sick shit?

JerryFerry · 22/12/2016 23:39

Yes I agree OP. However I feel that society is so steeped in misogyny that this thread is on a hiding to nowhere.

You may enjoy this column

www.thenational.scot/comment/14974083.Vonny_Moyes__How_can_I_explain_the_women_of_2016_to_my_daughter_/

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 23/12/2016 04:12

There may well be a worthwhile debate to be had on issues such as the often cited case that non- violent female offenders are more likely to get a custodial sentence than men.

I don't know if that is true but if it is an analysis of why would be worthwhile.

This thread however, where certain posters seem determined to minimise appalling behaviour by excuses such as " she wouldn't have done it if she hadn't met him" or Gwen's post about female child abusers who aren't really paedophiles, is an entirely different matter.

There is a thread on AIBU about the fact apparently only 9% of women say they are feminists. I would not be surprised if it were lower if the survey takers were to see some of the comments here.

DeepanKrispanEven · 23/12/2016 08:11

No-one is seeking to minimise what Hindley did. IF it is the case that in fact she wouldn't have done what she did if she hadn't met Brady, that cannot possibly take away from the evil of what she in fact did. Saying that "she wouldn't have done it if she hadn't met him" isn't an excuse - if anything it makes her conduct worse. At all times she had the choice to walk away and indeed to go to the police, but instead she participated actively.

I really don't understand what people think is anti-feminist about suggesting that she wouldn't have acted as she did without Brady's influence; it's a statement about what her character might have been, which is nothing whatsoever to do with her being a woman - obviously, in a relationship such as this, it is simply a matter of which one is the leader and which the follower, irrespective of which is male or female, or if they are both female or both male.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 23/12/2016 08:42

Saying that "she wouldn't have done it if she hadn't met him" isn't an excuse - if anything it makes her conduct worse

You may take that interpretation of what was said. I did not. There were several posts mentioning that he already had convictions, she hadn't, he was the prime instigator, if it has not been for him etc .

I really don't understand what people think is anti-feminist about suggesting that she wouldn't have acted as she did without Brady's influence

I did not say it was anti- feminist to say that. Some of the comments on this thread are for me perfect examples of what I dislike most in a certain type of feminist thinkinv - the idea that no matter how badly a woman behaves there must always be an excuse or they would not have done it if they were not influenced by a man.

It is infantilising.

"she would not have acted as she did without Brady's influence" - who knows?

Equally you could say he would not have acted as he did without her facilitating it- who knows what was actually discussed between them or who egged on whom.

0nline · 23/12/2016 10:16

here is a thread on AIBU about the fact apparently only 9% of women say they are feminists. I would not be surprised if it were lower if the survey takers were to see some of the comments here.

After 30 years of being a feminist I no longer call myself one, because current day feminism (in its various forms) appears to have moved on from my understanding of it. So it no longer fits me as a descriptor.

However I'm not reeling further from femisinim specifically due to Gwen's comments about some child abusers not being true pedophiles. We had a case over here, some time ago now, where a nursery nurse was sexually abusing teeny tinies in her charge in order to record the acts to gratify a pedophile she wanted to please/impress. I'd only disagree with Gwen if she stated that the motivation made the crime, and the criminal, "less bad" than somebody doing purely for sexual gratification.

It's not unheard of, for people to do unthinkable things to curry favour with a dominant personality they are desperate to impress, or hold onto. Doesn't make them less culpable, dangerous, or horrendous than somebody abusing a child for their own sexual pleasure. They are still abusing children for their own ends and desires. Still deserve to be locked up for the same amount of time as people doing it for different reasons. Still need to be kept away from children forever and absolutely deserve all the disgust and revulsion that becomes entwined with their name.

And that's where I would disagree with assertions that Hindley was "less bad". I don't care if she actively enjoyed her role in harming children, or instead did it to please/impress Brady and drew gratification from it via that route. She chose her own desires over the need of children not to be kidnapped, raped, abused and murdered. Which makes her a horror. A dangerous, warped, horror. Her motivations neither aggravate, nor mitigate what she did.

Extreme people pleasers who will participate in abuse, torture, kidnap and murder in order to achieve their their aims of gratifying the desires of a love interest are no less dangerous and culpable than those who have other motivations and triggers into harmful, or deadly action.

If the extreme people pleasers tend to be female (for reasons of nature, nurture, or societal shaping) then it is worth looking into why. But I don't see it as a priority cause that feminism needs to address. Which is where I largely agree with the thrust of your post. There are strands of feminist thought and focus which receive enough (perhaps disproportionate) attention and exposure to convince large numbers of females that their priorities are distinctly out of step with feminism, so they neither see themselves as a feminist, nor want to. Either ever, or anymore.

DeepanKrispanEven · 23/12/2016 11:48

I strongly suspect that Brady would have done what he did had he never met Hindley, given his history of torturing animals and the sort of literature he was reading. But it is true to say that he would have needed someone to help him, because part of the thrill to him was having someone else taking part, and partly because he liked to control people. After his arrest he continued to try to support Hindley, until it became clear that he could no longer influence her, whereupon he went into the attack against her.

Gwenhwyfar · 23/12/2016 20:13

"How can you excuse this sick shit?"

When have I excused it? I'm not saying it's better or worse to be a paedophile. A paedophile, as I understand it, is someone only attracted to children. Not all child abusers fit that description. That doesn't make them better or worse.

Gwenhwyfar · 23/12/2016 20:17

"the idea that no matter how badly a woman behaves there must always be an excuse or they would not have done it if they were not influenced by a man.

It is infantilising."

But nobody's arguing that for every woman, only for those where we know there was a man instigating. Nobody's arguing that in Karen Matthews's case, for example.

It is just as silly to argue that the women is always most or equally in the lead because one is a feminist. Why not look at each case?

JoeJoe80 · 24/12/2016 00:41

Vanessa George and those other women who abused in the nursery hadn't even met the man who supposedly had such power over them that they had no choice but to abuse children at his behest.

I find it hard to imagine how anyone could molest a child (without being forced or threatened into doing so) who isn't on some level a pedophile. In the George case I would venture these were women with latent pedophiliac tendencies who found in the male instigator someone who they could project responsibility onto.

No one who is not a pedophile or completely insane could do something like that to a child. Any normal person would vomit with horror and run to the police. They simply would not be capable of committing such an act.

Elendon · 24/12/2016 08:49

No one is denying that women are capable as fully fledged humans of degrading and disgusting acts, similar to those men do. The argument is that when women do it, it is seen as an aberration to the feminine gender, women are supposed to be carers and nurturers and not behave like men. This view is signed, sealed and delivered by the main stream media.

Just this morning I read two news articles. In one, a woman fell from a cruise ship and the search for her was abandoned. She was described as an 'elderly 74 year old woman', nothing else.

The second was about a vile racist comment towards the Obama's made by a man, he was described as a '70 year old business magnate'.

Thanks for that link JerryFerry - it is an excellent article.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 24/12/2016 09:45

Could you maybe give an example OP, of a man who has committed a crime involving abuse of children who you feel has "gotten off" ? The media typically describe such men as "the devil incarnate" and give the impression they should "throw away the key" etc if not kill them. I think that since it is unusual relatively to hear about women committing the kinds of abhorrent crimes against children that men do the cases might get slightly more column inches, but they are not reviled more than men IMO.

Gwenhwyfar · 24/12/2016 09:55

" hadn't even met the man who supposedly had such power over them that they had no choice but to abuse children at his behest. "

Well, it's likely that he didn't have any real power of them, but he had some hold over them and they chose to do whatever it took to please him.

"I find it hard to imagine how anyone could molest a child (without being forced or threatened into doing so) who isn't on some level a pedophile. "

That's a bit like when people say "they must be insane to have done this". People sometimes just don't want to believe that people who don't have a condition would do bad things, but I'm afraid I think they do.

"I would venture these were women with latent pedophiliac tendencies who found in the male instigator someone who they could project responsibility onto."

That's one explanation for what happened, but it's just your view, there's no evidence for that as far as I know.

Elendon · 24/12/2016 09:55

I know of Matthews and what she did to Shannon. I don't really know the uncle involved, who was just as bad.

I think throw away the key relates to people who act alone. When a woman is involved the focus seems to be on her. She will be the person who is evil incarnate, the worst mother in the UK, the devil's spawn. (The devil is always depicted as male of course).

Elendon · 24/12/2016 09:58

People can be inculcated into a sect, political group. One case that springs to mind is Patty Hearst. She was definitely groomed into the group in order to survive the terrible abduction.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst

BeyondIBringYouGoodTidings · 24/12/2016 10:01

Isn't it actually really common for those who abuse children to not be paedophiles?
They're actually sadists who just want to hurt someone and children are easiest

Elendon · 24/12/2016 10:04

Islamic State are known to groom people online. Many teenagers are warned about sexual grooming online. Is it their fault? Have they agency in this and are they able to stop it? Is it infantalising teenagers?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 24/12/2016 10:12

Elendon

I dont think you are suggesting that grown women and teenagers have the same agency ? But that's what it sounds like.

I dunno - I think if people actually suspected that women could be paedophiles to the extent they suspect men then society would be in big trouble. Maybe there is something of that in it. I wonder how many women would be happy to hand over the children to a nursery staffed entirely by men every morning.

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