Mixed sex wards and trans women.

[sarsleypage]

I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

From that example you gave, no sarsley. They could literally just be cross dressing on that day.

Then why did the trans charity produced leaflet describe them as a trans woman?

'Would you disagree with an MTF being on a women's ward?'
If they were pre-operative , yes I would.
If they no longer had a penis , I.e. Post-operative, no I would not object.

'I was making an assumption that the statement it might be their lesbian status rather than their penis which offended the religious sensibility was a bit disingenuous. Which I should not have.'

You're also assuming that person is a lesbian. Have I missed the bit where it says they are?

Regarding the pre/post op status, that leaflet says that doctors and HCPs have no right to know about a person's trans status. It says that this info may be withheld even if it's against medical advice (i.e. could affect their appropriate treatment).

Therefore, my question is: how are pre/post op trans people identified and sent to appropriate wards?

"I'd feel uncomfortable attaching my name to anything that could be seen as "transphobic", which is apparently any criticism of trans. I think it could damage my career"

This stood out to me and tells me why TA's are spitting on women's rights. Because we are all to scared of being labelled bigots. That is currently deemed the worst offence a person can commit these days.

Unless more women stand up and say 'No, we'll join in your fight to access your own spaces but keep the hell out of ours' then we are screwed and because of this after 1st December I honestly think that women will no longer have the right to object anymore.

Glen - I agree with you.
However, the OP is really muddled in her thinking. I've scanned through the document and will read it properly when i have the time. At first glance it doesn't seem that bad I have to say. In fact, it highlights many cases of discrimination against Trans people that sound awful.

I personally think the examples chosen are actually good examples of discrimination against trans people and so should rightly be used in awareness raising / education.

However, the belief that doctors have no right to know a person's trans history strikes me as incredibly dangerous, not just from the point of view that doses and medication are different for men and women, but also because the vast majority of trans people will be on a regime of drugs which could have serious side effects. If a doctor is to be kept ignorant of that they could either a) not realise that e.g. testosterone injections are causing the symptoms and b) prescribe something that causes a reaction to a current drug.

The issue of Trans people receiving medical treatment is very complex, so medical professionals do need information about it.

Ditto, Seashell.

(By good examples of discrimination I mean these are actual examples of discrimination rather than "violent misgendering" examples we frequently see. Obviously the examples themselves are awful)

I agree one flew, and I think that very concern is covered in the document.

You're also assuming that person is a lesbian. Have I missed the bit where it says they are?

Need to check but I think the patient described herself as a lesbian

Yes she described herself as a lesbian

Ah yes Lass, I've found it.

It's tough reading. As in, the experiences they've had are just awful.

I've just realised I've derailed my life by getting too involved in this thread! These kids should be in bed!

"I'm uncomfortable that women will all be stuck on the main ward, irrespective of their clinical need, while transgender patients (who may be in better general health) occupy the few side rooms which are quiet and private".

Where else should they go, though?

And where should a female patient who has a greater clinical need for a side ward go? In the main ward?

Isn't that blatant discrimination based solely on her being a biological woman? How on earth can that be fair?

If medical staff are going to be ranking self-identified gender (which may be fluid) above clinical need then that is a huge problem.

It's fucking ridiculous that self identification takes priority over sex, and means there's no such thing as sex segregated space any more

I would find it incredibly stressful to share a ward with someone male. Unless I was dying I'd probably try to discharge myself. How is that right? How can propping up someone's delusion be more important than my health?

Regardless of the dignity issues of mixed sex wards, surely it's dangerous to have people on the inappropriate ward for their health need? So a transman undergoing a hysterectomy has to be on a women's ward because he needs gynae treatment and needs the HCPs with specific knowledge of the common complications and care needed? He might prefer to be on a men's ward, but it might be to the detriment of him and also of the staff (easier to staff appropriately if all the urology/gynae etc patients are in the same place) ?

Hermione, I completely agree that wards should be segregated according to sex.
Kidnapped, I hear what you're saying. It would be wrong for the person with greater need for the side ward not to have it. But would the Trans woman then be put on the main ward? I don't think it would be fair to put them on a male ward if they've gone through the transitioning process, e.g. Have breasts, present as a woman, etc. I'm not saying I know what the answer is at all, just that it's a very complex issue.

But the example you quote does not say it was being in the side room that was the problem and caused complications. It says that the patient's severe bleeding was ignored because the nurses didn't want to treat the patient because they were Trans. That is discriminating against the patient's human rights.

Sorry, the example sarsley quoted

Are children's wards single sexed? I've never been on one

Just thinking of my DD who would be very uncomfortable with a MTF teen sharing private space with her.

How long will it be until we see a male gynae ward?

There's a post on another recent thread by Exwifebeginsat40, 17/11 19.33 about her DH, a doctor, who has had 3 recent trans patients who were admitted onto female wards. All flashed their bits and caused widespread consternation until single rooms could be found for them.

Perhaps someone could cut n paste the post. I'm on my phone and can provide a link but not the text, which is very relevant here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2782281-To-not-really-understand-why-some-people-are-so-upset-by-transwomen-using-public-toilets?msgid=64942064