Mixed sex wards and trans women.

[sarsleypage]

I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

[PinkIsRad]

Agreed, that suggests you are right. But I wonder why they contradict themselves in their results.

[WilliamHerschel]

I don't think they did contradict themselves. Ftt have a higher risk for criminal convictions than their birth sex, whereas mtt have the same rate as their birth sex, not higher.

[kua]

It's quite clear.

[LadySaladinForge]

In the last week or so there has been at least 4 notable cases of violence/sex offending from MTTs. One murdered 2 adults and a child.

[PinkIsRad]

"I don't think they did contradict themselves. Ftt have a higher risk for criminal convictions than their birth sex, whereas mtt have the same rate as their birth sex, not higher." Agreed.

Fair enough. I still maintain that phrasing it "with a penis on the ward" is unnecessarily provocative.

[kua]

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.combined.nhs.uk/aboutus/publications/Documents/Privacy%2520and%2520Dignity.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi69si-zcLQAhVpIcAKHe0LAp8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNEGlAWDrDncobduXWbb7wVl1dFCXg" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.combined.nhs.uk/aboutus/publications/Documents/Privacy%2520and%2520Dignity.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi69si-zcLQAhVpIcAKHe0LAp8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNEGlAWDrDncobduXWbb7wVl1dFCXg

Pink read this too.

[FloraFox]

This is not so difficult. Female / male segregation. If an MTT passes as female (unusual) it can be explained to the men on the ward that this person is MTT. Similarly with MTT.

[Datun]

Oh, and they often remain attracted to women (forgot one, Pink)

[kua]

Exactly Flora, In acute hospitals the body is treated, there should be no issues with this at all.

[FloraFox]

Datun I think that is a huge part of the problem with the TRA position. Almost everyone thinks MTTs have had full surgery and are attracted to men. This would make them little threat to women. I ththink no this experience Laine why people generally don't think MTTs could be harmful to women.

[lougle]

'If the person is presenting as male, being on a female ward is really not appropriate and I can see why a side room was used. But it seems that wasn't enough either and somehow the use of a side room is being blamed for a post-op complication?'

Side rooms are not appropriate for post op patients. They are used in the case of infection buy it's not ideal. Post op requires high visibility.

My other issue with your post is that you're now giving the impression that you are bothered by maleness per se. If a man presenting as a woman isn't allowed on a female ward then they should be on a male ward. So far I understand you. But then you say that a woman presenting as a man shouldn't be on a female ward.....well where do they go? Not on a male ward - why should men have a woman on a ward with them? But not on a female ward either? You can't have it all ways.

[Datun]

FloraFox

Absolutely. I think most people think of tramswomem as either post-OP, camp, elderly gents, maybe a bit pathetic but no danger to anyone. Or young and trendy gender bending dudes pushing the boundaries and being progressive.

Instead of it being a hugely regressive step at best and an almighty mass con trick at worst (trutrans excepted, as ever).

In terms of the OP. The bearded woman should absolutely be on a female ward. If her beard was a problem, surely the most diplomatic step to take would to tell the other patients on the ward she was a woman - who is transitioning.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

The statistics on sexual attraction of transwomen are, as I recall, 27% are exclusively attracted to men, with the remaining 73% fairly evenly split between exclusively women and bisexual. I assume that of the 20% who have bottom surgery most are gay men hoping for a quasi heterosexual relationship.

Straight men who transition are attracted to women but many also have sex with men as they find it validating. There's also the issue of kink, a big feature of trans culture, as is industrial quantities of porn. Some are happy to cast their net wide.

The first group comprise most of the old school transsexuals, I think. In the past transsexuals all had full surgery and weren't interested in women, which is what nearly everyone still thinks is the case.

[HermioneWeasley]

lotus I know a woman who while sectioned had a TW brought into her bay. Part of her delusion was that male people (including her husband and father) were out to harm her. She was told that the MTT had every right to be there

[fakenamefornow]

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime."

One problem we might encounter now is that if somebody has a GRC then any crimes they commit will be recorded as being committed by the sex (not gender) the identify as and not by a person of their biological sex. This could seriously affect crime stats and give a very misleading view. It would also make studying it almost impossible if you can't distinguish between XX and XY. The same goes for sporting achievements.

[Datun]

fakenamefornow

My eldest son eye rolled a little at my suggestion that health stats could be skewed because 'they're a tiny minority, mum'. However although that may be the current case if you are including them in health stats, if you suddenly, include, or rather, them, from crime stats, it's a different story. If, say (I'm making these figures up) 20 transwomen committed a violent crime in one year, that would be newsworthy. But, you're right, if they were recorded as a female crime, then what?!

I wonder if that is why transpeople have such conviction when they say a transwomen has never committed a violent crime?? Because it would be recorded as female crime? And they know it. And why when you do point out a crime, they say they're not genuine trans?

[fakenamefornow]

It could make a very big difference indeed to sex crime recording, were women commit very few and men commit huge amounts.

[Datun]

And far harder to track whether or not transwomen post as much of a risk as natal born men. In fact, if self identification means you cannot misgender them in reporting, the stats will disappear entirely.

So sinister !!

[Elendon]

When I miscarried my first pregnancy there was a transwoman admitted next to me, she looked like a woman but there was something not quite right about her - her dress was all wrong, she looked like a Victorian woman. She insisted in pulling back the curtains and wanting to know exactly what was happening to me. She pulled the curtains back, walked in and said that she sometimes had feelings of a miscarry. She then proceeded to rub her hands between her legs and move them up and down, moaning. I was so frightened and beyond grief (I cried for a week at the loss). It lasted all of about 5 minutes because the other patients alerted the staff. I shouted for her to leave and called for help. I said to the nurse that I was going to phone the police, in fact another woman on the ward, who was a lawyer, was going to do it for me. We were all shocked! She had to be sedated and was then moved to a side room. This was in 1991. I felt very sorry for her though, she was incredibly disturbed. I did hope she got the care she needed.

[Datun]

Elendon

And there you have it. Now it would be considered discriminatory if you suggested she needed 'care' at all.

[Elendon]

But I was a patient not a HCP. She needed care. That much was obvious. She was becoming aggressive and we all know that women who become aggressive need sedation. If you want to be a woman, then get on board.

[Elendon]

If you want to be a woman then accept that quality of health care is lower, especially when it comes to psychological disorders within a health care setting. You put up and shut up.

[Elendon]

Actually, that's unfair, mental health care provision is appalling in this country. It is slightly better for males though.

Men and women and those who trans are just much likely to be shoved to the side when it comes to mental health provision.

[Elendon]

One more thing, because I have to go, men get better care within the NHS than women. That much is obvious.

Giving birth is not included in this. I'm talking about what xx and xy similarly suffer from.