Mixed sex wards and trans women.

[sarsleypage]

I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

It seems women can't really win then? Either they're on a ward with MTF, who have penises and therefore would pose a threat, or on a ward with FTM who appear to be male and therefore still carry a perceived threat.

What situation actually best serves the women who are there to recuperate, other than use of side rooms?

So trans women get to go on female wards and so do trans men.

If a trans woman is having a prostate operation, do they go on the men's or women's ward?

The examples you've given contradict one another.

It says 'nurses would not care for me' after the operation.

FTM do not carry any threat to women! They can't rape them. Where would you put the Trans Man having a hysterectomy? On a male ward?

Of the examples you give I don't really see that making the situation easier for the family is such an outrageous thing to do.

On the other one , the patient in question knows I'm sure it was their penis not their lesbian status which caused the problem,.

I'm not hugely sympathetic to the nurse's position. If you are going into nursing I think it is not unreasonable to expect hat you may have to deal with a penis. We discussed whether a female beautician could refuse to wax a trans woman's penis and most people agreed yes. But that is different from nursing where I think one sort of expects you are going to be dealing with many aspects of the human body those of us who are not nurses would find unpleasant.

FTM carry a perceived threat if they present as male. The women on the ward have no way of knowing that they have no penis.

They should be in a side room, as I already said, but the leaflet suggests this is not enough.

The nurse thing arose because I had a misunderstanding of the role, sorry for that. I was coming at it from a medical PoV.

It's more the idea that a bearded person on a female ward, full of women undergoing gynae, should just be accepted without question

You have picked some terrible examples.

This woman is a woman in the xx chromosome sense and given her health problems is very likely to be in a gynae ward.

Bearded lady Harnaam Kaur speaks out about her quest for love | Daily Mail Online
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2563962/I-understand-certain-people-wont-attracted-I-hope-theres-lady-excessive-hair-speaks-quest-love.html

She's clearly a woman.. a MTF is presenting as male.

*FTM

But it is a perceived threat, not an actual threat at all. It's a really bad example OP.
It's completely different from having a biological man with a fully functioning penis on a women's ward.

Well now I'm mostly just concerned that you, as a medical student, didn't understand that a trans patient who was having a hysterectomy must have been born a woman.

Is a part time cross dresser a trans woman?

But it is a perceived threat, not an actual threat at all. It's a really bad example OP.
It's completely different from having a biological man with a fully functioning penis on a women's ward.

So would you disagree with a MTF being on a woman's ward?

Well now I'm mostly just concerned that you, as a medical student, didn't understand that a trans patient who was having a hysterectomy must have been born a woman.

'On the other one , the patient in question knows I'm sure it was their penis not their lesbian status which caused the problem,.'

Which example are you talking about LassWiTheDelicateAir?

'Is a part time cross dresser a trans woman?'

No.

Is a part time cross dresser a trans woman?'

No.

Why not? Aren't they gender fluid?

I'm just pointing out you said beards not welcome in gynae wards.

I think there is a debate to be had but all the examples you have picked seem to me that actually the trans person in each case has not been treated respectfully.

The it's against my religion one is , as far as I'm concerned, indefensible in the context of public health provision.

But shouldn't side rooms be allocated on clinical need rather than automatically go to someone who doesn't identify with their biological sex? Side rooms are not plentiful in NHS hospitals.

I'm uncomfortable that women will all be stuck on the main ward, irrespective of their clinical need, while transgender patients (who may be in better general health) occupy the few side rooms which are quiet and private.

From that example you gave, no sarsley. They could literally just be cross dressing on that day.

I think it was more the outrage that a young woman was shocked to be confronted with a penis that I found to be quite entitled.

As I said, GPs and other doctors in non-emergency situations can get their patient seen by a different doctor for sensitive examinations. I stupidly assumed it was similar for HCPs, but I suppose given the predominance of female nurses that would never work in practice. I didn't think it through.

The cases did all accuse trans discrimination, but it is a leaflet produced by a trans charity and there's no actual data on whether those things happened as described.

I'm uncomfortable that women will all be stuck on the main ward, irrespective of their clinical need, while transgender patients (who may be in better general health) occupy the few side rooms which are quiet and private.

Where else should they go, though?

On the other one , the patient in question knows I'm sure it was their penis not their lesbian status which caused the problem,.'

Which example are you talking about LassWiTheDelicateAir?

I was making an assumption that the statement it might be their lesbian status rather than their penis which offended the religious sensibility was a bit disingenuous. Which I should not have.

Sorry, I misread. In the example you gave yes they are. It says: 'A trans woman, who is a part-time cross dresser'