Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

Elendon

Her perception that she was an actual woman, her perception that she had the possibility of miscarriage, her unhealthy interest in your condition, the aggression and genital rubbing are all characteristics of a trans-woman suffering from AGP. From what you have said she may well have had other mental health issues, but that behaviour alone isn't considered one of them.

And I take your point about males being treated better than females, I hadn't realised that. But it's no surprise. Although, I'm sure you're right, and it comes as one hell of surprise to men who 'pass'.

Holy shit, Elendon, that was grotesque. I'm so sorry you had to go through this.

Elendon

I am so sorry you had to go through that

It IS grotesque. But as soon as men become legally women, it's going to get worse. If a man's neo-vagina needs work (repair? I've no idea), will he be put on the gynaecological ward? With expectant mothers? If he has AGP? I honestly can't accept that could be possible, but if sex sick location law is being changed to include people like that, is it going to happen?

Sick location !!?? ( my phone is a Freudian)

*sex segregation

'Sick location law'

It does what it says on the tin.

What you say about if you want to be a woman you need to accept that quality of health care is lower, Elendon, is interesting.

I have heard it suggested several times in different forums that what transwomen who pass think is transphobia is, in fact, just what being treated like a woman is like. There was a piece in that trans obsessed organ, HuffPo, in which some special snowflake complained that some random person had touched him on the arm while speaking to him. He ranted that no cis woman ever got touched without permission, which just goes to show that he really has zero understanding of what life as it woman is like. Entitled idiot.

Funnily enough, when I was reading some of those quotes throughout the report I was thinking "That's nothing to do with being trans, that's just below-par service", and many of us can give similar examples of being refused treatment, disbelieved, patronised, ignored etc etc by HCP

That is so awful Elendon - I'm so sorry that you went through that at an already difficult time.

I certainly agree that women get treated differently to men in similar circumstances - I've seen studies previously that showed differences in doctor response to men and women reporting pain. Unsurprisingly, women reporting pain were more likely to be told to "wait it out" or believed to be exaggerating - it was linked to the number of heart attacks that were missed in women because doctors thought they were being melodramatic.

My mother has no capacity following a severe stroke, however one thing she could and did make plain, she did not want male carers.
If a carer identified as female, but was biologically male, and my mother did not realise, would it have been fair for my mother to receive intimate care from this carer ? I personally don't think it would be fair on my mother at all.
I am slowly becoming aware of the complex issues.

It's a depressing read: Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest

Skimmed too conclusion. Women experience more pain, report it more as a result and get treated worse than men. Depressing indeed.

There's a long tgread somewhere here at the moment (chat? health?) about women's experiences of side effects with the mirena coil and HCPs refusing to take it out - with at least half a dozen women reporting that they were reduced to pulling it out themselves. Can you imagine men being treated that way?

It doesn't surprise me MostlyHet - I had a copper coil put in incorrectly and I was told I was exaggerating for a few weeks despite the fact that I fainted a number of times. It turns out it had perforated my uterus hence me nearly vomiting with pain, but literally until the moment they identified it I was treated as though I was hysterical (quite ironically)

Oh and afterwards I was told I'd been too stoic and should have made more fuss - I remain unconvinced that they'd have taken me any more seriously if I had.

NoMudNoLotus I have a friend to whom precisely the thing of being sectioned and having a transwoman in the ward happened, so I am a bit miffed you are dismissing it as pie in the sky. Transwoman sat around with short skirt and visible penis. Friend felt unsafe not least as there were no locks on toilets or showers. Transwoman patient was greeted as old friend by staff and when she complained she was dismissed on the grounds that they knew the person and they were fine.
So please, please, PLEASE don't say this kind of thing would never happen because it is.
(And if it would never happen where you have worked then good, excellent, but please don't insist that other people can't be experiencing it.)

Further up there is a post suggesting that doctors don't need to be informed if a patient is trans. If you were accessing medical help and didn't disclose your full medical, then I'd assume you were unbelievably fucking stupid. Surely no one is actually that stupid?

Or delusional?

stewie since some TW think they have a menstrual cycle yes I think some might well be that stupid/delusional

HermioneWeasley "elendon that is a horrific story and a prime example of why we need to keep sex segregated wards. Male socialisation doesn't end even if they're castrated."

Calm down there kitty cat.

pink if you don't think what happened to Elendon is horrific then you have zero compassion and empathy for women.

I won't calm down about protecting women's rights, but thanks for the patronising attempt.

Fine by you is it Pink?
OK....

Oh and afterwards I was told I'd been too stoic and should have made more fuss - I remain unconvinced that they'd have taken me any more seriously if I had.

That'd probably been treated as proof that you are "hysteric", "shrill" and so on and so forth, and gotten you taken even less seriously.

We can't win this game.

Calm down kitty cat.
What sort of response is that? I would expect from a completely sexist male.
Kindness towards all is the way forward but sex segregated wards is obviously important and much more safe for women.

The examples in the op aren't great....

An XX woman (trans or not) who is having a hysterectomy should absolutely be on a female ward.

Why? Because she is being treated by gynaecologists. How many gyne consultants do you find on male wards? None.

When you are having major surgery, clinical safety comes before feelz. A transman may feel uncomfortable on a female gyne ward, but at least they are guaranteed to he seen each day by a consultant in the appropriate specialty. There is masses of evidence showing that patients who sleep on wards outside their specialty have worse outcomes. They are more likely to die.

Similarly, an XY man who is in hospital for a urology procedure should be on a male ward. No question at all.

The tricky cases are the ones where people are in hospital for conditions that aren't sex related... However, I still feel that people should be in a ward appropriate to their physical sex, not their assumed 'gender'.