Mixed sex wards and trans women.

[sarsleypage]

I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Yes, KateinKorea, that might have been the case. However I'm still baffled about the poor patient having to have her beard shaved off. Why? Is facial hair not permitted on gynae wards?

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

There are plenty of part-time cross dressers who are trans. There are transwomen who present as men, ffs. There are absolutely no objective criteria for being trans now.

[WilliamHerschel]

"We all have what is called a “gender identity,” it is formed after we are born within the first 2 to 3 years of our early development. It is this gender identity that does not match the physical body of the trans person."

We all have a gender identity, really? What actually is it? How do I know that I have one and what it is - do they run tests?

[WilliamHerschel]

And what does "a trans woman, who is a part-time crossdresser" mean?

Are they a transwoman who occasionally dresses as a man? Or are they a man who occasionally dresses as a woman and is therefore a transwoman?

[Kidnapped]

Prawn, the poster Exwifebeginsat40 was quoting another poster (Lesley1980) and calling her a liar.

Exwifebeginsat40 tends to come onto threads about transwomen and says that everyone is horrible to transpeople and that feminists should shut up about it.

[M0stlyHet]

Ah, that makes sense, Kidnapped - I was trying to make sense of the contradiction between the first half of her post and the second (why can't people use quotation marks, or bold type?)

[MistressMortificado]

Are you really a medical student? How are you going to square your feelings with treating patients? Are you able to be neutral because you seem very unhappy with gender reassignment.

[PinkIsRad]

"It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer."

Sounds like you are scared of penises.

On a serious note, are you? Because you write like if that trans woman had no penis, it wouldn't matter. Are you saying transwomen are as likely to commit (sexual) violence against women as men?

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Yes, Pinkisrad, that's what we're thinking. Because transwomen commit sex and violent crime at the same rate as other adult males.

[PinkIsRad]

Yes, Pinkisrad, that's what we're thinking. Because transwomen commit sex and violent crime at the same rate as other adult males.

Seems odd, that one.

But ok, I didn't know they do. Are there statistics on this?

[kua]

Exactly Prawn,

[kua]

pink Google is your friend, feel free to search. It is all out there.

[Twogoats]

I'm sorry, but underneath all their make-up and wigs, I can't imagine that most trans women would even pass for female. Therefore in hospital (without hair and make-up), they would probably want privacy anyway?

(Sorry I'm not trying to offend anyone, just giving a general opinion!)

[PinkIsRad]

yes but if you are so certain about this, I assume you have done this googling before and know where to look exactly? i am very lazy you know.

[kua]

As you admit your lazy I'll let you do the work in educating yourself. Come back and tell me what you have found. Then we can discuss.

[PinkIsRad]

Then I will just assume you were making up facts. It's rather common these days, Brexit, Trump...

[kua]

No, I have the stats. I'm just asking you to educate yourself prior to engaging. It isn't that hard...

[PinkIsRad]

Why would I? You are making the claim, back it up yourself.

[kua]

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016885

There you go

[katand2kits]

Scared of penises? Well, penis owing humans do commit over 95% of sexual offenses, so I guess it is logical that uterus-havers have learnt to be fearful of them.

[NoMudNoLotus]

OP you sound very young.

Life is not black & white.

I have nursed for 18 years - and within that time cared for trans gender patients.

Each person and each situation is assessed on its on merit - the psychological & physical safety of the trans gender person and the other patients is paramount.

You cannot write a leaflet or subscribe to a thinking of how it should be managed because each case & person is different.

Sensitivity & dignity is required .

I have cared for men who prefer to dress as women on wards and vice versa and every situation has been met with sensitivity & compassion by all.

Your example about a sectioned patient having to stay on a ward with a trans person with a penis is utter pie in the sky.

People detained under the mental health act have rights, and a voice and the option to move wards if they felt unsafe about ANYTHING.

In 18 years I have never met a nurse who has refused to provide personal care so I think a very extreme example.

Also to add, I had nursed abuse related trauma victims - your suggestion that women may be frightened by a penis is very simplistic. Their anxieties run far deeper than that. Also don't forget that female trauma victims are often cared for by male members of the MDT.

Please get yourself out onto the wards much more and see how things really work.

[WillIamHerschel]

I don't see why transwomen would have a different crime rate to men. They have the same social conditioning and the same biology.

[PinkIsRad]

Results: Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

[kua]

Keep reading..

[WilliamHerschel]

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime."