Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

I would certainly feel far more uncomfortable with a transgender natal (born/biological) male examining me, than a garden variety non-trans male.
It's very much due to the fact that a transgender natal male is quite likely to be someone who fetishises my biology in a very unhealthy and misogynistic way.
I would prefer to be examined by a female, but in a situation where that was not possible I'd rather an ordinary male HCP than a 'transwoman', mostly because of the attitudes I know a transwoman will likely have about females.

Lass the assumption that all or the majority of trans healthcare professionals will be up to no good does not sit well.

There is no such assumption here. This is like the bathroom thing - we don't think most transwomen will attack us, but we don't want to give the opportunity to those who would, or who would pretend to be trans in order to have access.

AFAIK the evidence shows that late transitioning MTT are usually autogynaephiliac. Regardless, I do not want a man doing my smear test. I would possibly make an exception for my male gynaecologist, but that is only because I have got to know and trust him over time (as well as the fact that he's already been closer to my sexual organs than any other man is likely to, albeit wielding surgical implements and through the non-erotic method of incision to the abdomen... ). But for someone who's basically a stranger, I'd go for a woman every time. This is based not on assumptions, but the facts of male attitudes, abuse, and violence towards women ( on the whole, ie. NAMALT). I don't care if the man thinks he's a woman.

Actually if I had to compile a list of "most preferable" to "least preferable" to do a smear test, a man would be preferable to a man who thinks putting on a frock and removing his penis makes him a woman. Because the latter has already shown they have a misogynistic view of womanhood.

"put on a blindfold."

WTF

I don't believe for a second that you are a woman. A teenage girl with know-all arrogance, perhaps.

No woman would tell other women to put on a blindfold(blindfold, ffs!) if they don't want to spread their legs for a strange man to stick a metal rod up their vaginas. Fucking hell.

And if we want to run away because we feel unsafe, we should just chain ourselves so.

Any other male fantasy suggestions you would like us to perform?

It's very much due to the fact that a transgender natal male is quite likely to be someone who fetishises my biology in a very unhealthy and misogynistic way.

So you are stereotyping an entire class of people based on your personal biases.

Imagine if 95% of people felt the same way as you, pretty unlikely that that group could carry out that profession. All because of your prejudice. That sounds a lot like discrimination to me. And just because in actual fact it's not 95% of people does not make it any less so.

"a man would be preferable to a man who thinks putting on a frock and removing his penis makes him a woman. Because the latter has already shown they have a misogynistic view of womanhood."

Pretty sick views on transgender people in this thread.

CoteDAzur just like no woman could possibly vote for pussy grabbing Trump? And I don't know what kind of men you have been meeting, but blindfolding isn't a fetish I have come across much, or at all. You should disconnect your emotions from you argumentation.

Pink
"So you are stereotyping an entire class of people based on your personal biases."
No, I'm not stereotyping an entire class of people at all. I'm listening to them, and observing them, and taking in what they and their proponents believe about women, and how they treat women. This has led me to understand that for a natal male to believe they are actually female/a woman, involves inherently sexist stereotypes, misogynistic fetishising of females, and railroading of women's rights.
Which leads me to think that I would feel even more unsafe having a transgender natal male near my nethers, than an ordinary male HCP.
This is not discrimination, any more than a middle eastern patient not wanting an HCP who wears a "white pride" badge.
And for the record, your blindfold suggestion is utterly repulsive.

There are some pretty misogynistic views on this thread ...

No Pink, telling women to put on a blindfold if they don't want a strange man access to their vagina is NOT like voting for Trump.

Any woman anywhere in the world would know how outrageous, misogynist, and offensive your remark is.

As has often been said on on MN: Heels don't make a woman, skirts don't make a woman, makeup doesn't make a woman. And neither does the color Pink in one's name.

Pimk, regardless of whether you are a woman with a high degree of internalised misogyny or a man pretending to be a woman online (not trans, I really mean a man pretending to be a woman for his own amusement), you come across in your posts as someone who dislikes women intensely and is extremely dismissive of them.

I don't think this is a big problem. If a trans person is sick most doctors and nurses will want to help them in hospital and most other patients will be tolerant and kind.

I would not like to be a mixed sex ward in hospital,. When tried they have been very unpopular and I am glad we have not rolled them out widely. Obviously if it were that or death I'd go for the mixed sex option.
If there is a trans person coming into a ward can people not just use common sense - the nurse have a word with the other patients in advance, get them on side so they aren't shocked when they see a penis on what they thought was an all female ward? If someone is offended on the ward try to make sure those people are in beds away from each other. Trans person keeps the penis largely hidden, common sense stuff.

But surely if the nurse briefed everyone that would break patient confidentiality?

Sorry, delurking

I think there is absolutely no point whatsoever in engaging with a person that does not understand why a woman might be incredibly traumatised by an intimate examination by a man

Obviously that goes for men who have been sexually assaulted or raped themselves

Yes, that occurred to me too, Queen. I suggested earlier in the thread that women on the same ward as a transman patient who looked like a man could be reassured if staff explained the situation. Then, as I considered it further, I realised that this would be impossible unless the transman agreed. A tricky question.

I totally understand Datun's dilemma. The trouble is that there really is no parallel between the sexes. There aren't any group who are likely to find performing intimate procedures on men arousing. Women, however, are subject to quasi medical abuse by sexually motivated HCP and have every right to be cautious. It's one of the reasons doctors are held to such high standards in terms of relationships with patients.

A friend was sexually assaulted by her GP. It's a very damaging experience.

I totally understand Datun's dilemma. The trouble is that there really is no parallel between the sexes. There aren't any group who are likely to find performing intimate procedures on men arousing. Women, however, are subject to quasi medical abuse by sexually motivated HCP and have every right to be cautious. It's one of the reasons doctors are held to such high standards in terms of relationships with patients.

Plus it is all about what it means to exist as an embodied subject in this patriarchal world. We have the biological facts that men are stronger than women and can rape women. We have the social reality that men are violent towards women, do overcome them and rape them. We also know that this happens in the kinds of settings where women and girls are often particularly vulnerable - i.e. in a range of medical / surgical settings. Beyond this, we also know that women who are violated, assaulted and raped are often not believed and that the process of charging offenders is fraught and harrowing (and usually unsuccessful). We know that professionals have power and that challenging their word is extra problematic.

I don't think there is an equivalent for men on the basis of their embodied and gendered selves, simply because men have the upper hand / the power.

Beyond this, there are other facets to being embodied as a woman in a gendered and patriarchal society as well, which do lead many women to wanting female only attendants in intimate medical settings.

Why should 'the feels' and 'psychological reasons be valid when men who look, act and have the bodies of men want to use women's facilities, but women's well-grounded feelings and reasons (see above) for wanting intimate care to be performed by other women and to be in wards only with other women are dismissed as irrational and selfish? Could this be about male privilege, power and patriarchy, do you think?

Pink and Lass

For the record many late transitioning males do have AGP as a sexual fetish. It's anywhere between 20 and 80% ( depending upon the vested interest of the website you read)

There for between two and 8 out of every 10 transwomen will have it.

It's not the same as a natal born man because the very experience of being in that situation is arousing for them. There kink is such that intimate women's spaces are a sexual goal. It's NOT about whether they are attracted to you FGS.

This is one of the overwhelming reasons why women have a problem. In all women's intimate spaces.

'It's very much due to the fact that a transgender natal male is quite likely to be someone who fetishises my biology in a very unhealthy and misogynistic way.'

So you are stereotyping an entire class of people based on your personal biases.

Pink, 'quite likely' is not the same as saying 'all'. 'Toddlers are quite likely to get fractious if cooped up' leaves plenty of space for all those toddlers who'll spend happy hours playing with the Duplo in a corner.

Pretty sick views on transgender people in this thread.
I don't think so. And we have a transman in the near family, always welcome in my house, no issues there whatsoever, so I know whereof I speak.

"many late transitioning males do have AGP as a sexual fetish"

True, as can easily be seen on Reddit's AskTransgender sub.

Every once in a while, a new male adult comes in asking "I'm aroused by the thought of myself as a woman. Does that mean I have AGF?" and is met with many replies saying "Me, too! But that's OK because all women are like this".

Like here, here, here, here, here.

The implicit delusion would be sad if it were not scary.

For info: No, women aren't turned on by the thought of having breasts and a vagina, any more than having two arms does. Those are just the body parts we have.

And I'd be more than happy for a transman to do my smear test. So not transphobic at all.

It's Russian roulette. There is no way of knowing if a transwoman has AGP. In fact they have a massive vested interest in hiding it.

Cote
Yes, Reddit's AskTransgender sub is really very enlightening to scroll through. It's quite frightening, to see how so many trans natal males on the internet think women feel and act They honestly couldn't be more wrong!

sex= biological reality, unchangeable. Gender= social construct, generally binary and something feminists have battled against for decades- the assumption that biological females like pink, dolls etc and that biological males like guns, trousers etc. Gender is hurtful to both sexes.
Sex is determined at or soon after birth. You can be male, female or intersex. These are biological states. It isn't possible to change sex- it is part of who you are. The feeling of being 'born in the wrong body' (gender dysmorphia) is a mental health condition. So- men cannot become women. Women cannot become men. Gender is a crock of s*. the mainstreaming of transgenderism as a thing is done to reinforce the patriarchy and keep us all pinned in our binary positions. It is leading to the sterilisation of children who would more than likely grow up to be gay.

joystir59

Exactly. I simply can't understand how or why it's become a protected characteristic to this extent. I'm sure there are very credible trans-people, but a cursory glance on the Internet tells you all you need to know.

I'll never get it.

I speak as a lesbian who wanted to be a boy when I was a child, And who grew up to be a very happy lesbian who loves her body. Imagine if I was a child now- my lovely PC parents would be encouraging my delusions, referring me for puberty retarding hormones which would permanently sterilise me. Instead of letting me get on with my life wearing trousers and playing in the mud.

I don't know if mumsnet is unusual in this, but the number of people who have come on here and said exactly the same as you joy. All of them quite convinced that they would've been considered trans at the time. Very worrying.

Please can we all stop with transagenda Newspeak like "trans natal males"?

"Natal males" is redundant, since there is no way to change one's sex which is encoded into every cell in the body.

Males who "feel like" women and want the world to treat them as such are transwomen. They are also males. Not "natal males".

It may look like a small distinction, but it is not.

(I'm not having a go at you, Missi. Your post was just an example)

I refuse to name MTF transgender people 'female'. They are men. I refuse to let anyone name me 'cis'. I am WOMAN. Not because I identify so, but because that is my biological reality. I refuse to go away. I refuse to acknowledge my privilege in being born female. And while I'm on my soap box, only women have periods, and only women can carry and bring forth young. I am not being f**g transphobic! I am stating facts. And I will not share women only spaces with men, whether wearing a dress or not.