Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

Nothing of what you wrote there is relevant to getting up in the middle of the night and accidentally exposing your genitals to a MTF.

As to the rest, so your ranking is woman > man > transwoman when it comes to people looking at and poking your vagina? Because you are scared they might be aroused by your vagina because they might have AGP?

Why don't you just put a blindfold on and you will never know.

Oh good. Pink is here again to tell us all how we are doing it wrong.

Pink.

As this thread is about trans-women in hospitals,I don't particularly want anyone with a penis, looking at my vagina, thank you very much. I certainly don't want someone who is more likely to have sexual fetish doing it. No.

What is AGP? (I'm gussing it's not Accelorated Graphics Port?)

Autogynephilia

Do you think that is reasonable? To demand female only doctors because you are uncomfortable?

What if the woman is lesbian and gets off on it?

Sorry posted too soon

= a man who is turned in by the thought of himself as a woman

Actually, I think it is reasonable for a woman to not want to be examined by a male HCP in a non-urgent situation. Considering the rate of male-inflicted trauma and violence in many women's lives, quite a few would probably find a male HCP examining them to be upsetting. Including myself.

On the face of it you would think that a lesbian and a transwoman with AGP would hold the same level of concern for a woman. But, for me, they don't. AGP is characterised by the sufferer's fantasy of being a woman in a humiliating situation, it is a victim fetish. The idea of being weak and vulnerable, is what is sexually arousing. There's a deep level of misogyny to it.

The practice nurse at my local surgery is a lesbian, and it doesn't bother me at all.

Actually, I think it is reasonable for a woman to not want to be examined by a male HCP in a non-urgent situation. Considering the rate of male-inflicted trauma and violence in many women's lives, quite a few would probably find a male HCP examining them to be upsetting. Including myself.

either the rate or the many has to go from that sentence else it doesn't make sense.

But really? Violence from strangers is much less common than from people you know.

So go back to my earlier suggestion, put on a blindfold. As long as they stay professional why are you bothered?

The NHS link I posted upthread says you can ask for a female nurse or doctor to perform your smear, so evidently the NHS thinks its reasonable.

Personally, I've never minded whether it was a male or female HCP but then, I'm fortunate enough to have never suffered male assault, sexual or otherwise. I'm not going to tell any other woman how she should feel. I know that many women have reason to distrust men-as-a-class, and therefore support their right to choose in this matter.

Pink - you do know that there are plenty of cases of HCPs not staying professional, don't you?

I'm not going to tell any other woman how she should feel.

No one asks you to. But what the debate is about whether those feeling are in warrant of special treatment. In this case I dare say there are enough female personnel around to make this viable, so they can afford to do this.

But really? Violence from strangers is much less common than from people you know.

Not sure that was the point Pink. It was women who have suffered male violence/rape could be triggered by a male performing an intimate exam.

There are plenty of blacks committing violent crime, plenty of Muslims committing terrorist acts, are you advocating it's ok to judge the entire class of blacks/Muslims?

But that is a psychological issue. That's totally different to "I feel uncomfortable". Being offended or being uncomfortable shouldn't give you extra rights just because.

I disagree Pink. And can't be doing with arguing the toss. It's a fairly prevalent feeling, hence NHS guidelines. If you don't get it, so be it.

Not sure if I can bothered responding to half of that, TBH. Blindfolds will make everything OK...?

Datun - I know what you were trying to get at, but I do't think that there is a similar parallel for men. Will think on further on that

Olennas

I think I'm just finding an awful lot of men lately just not understanding. Agreeing, yes. Having sympathy, indeed. But then dismissing it and carrying on as usual.

It is not an 'extra right' to have a choice over who performs an intimate examination.

For instance, The NHS page on rectal exams www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Rectal-examination/Pages/How-it-is-performed.aspx - so applicable to men even more than women - says that some people find it embarrassing, or have religious or cultural sensitivities and therefore may prefer a same-sex GP.

I hear ya, Datun.

Pink - as in many women suffer from not just one incident of male violence, but a worringly high rate of it throughout their lives. Having a strange male HCP penetrate their vagina, may cause deep emotional distress because of the previous trauma they have sustained.

(Well, any rate is worrying, but ykwim.)

As the majority of late transitioning males have AGP do they?

then a transwoman doing intimate exam is cause for concern for females, if you can't insist on an actual female

Is it? I'm not comfortable with this idea that you can determine not only what a person's innermost sexual desires are just by looking at them and (b) that they will be unable to suppress or contain them whilst doing their job.

And no I am not saying you should not ask for a woman or a man if that is what you want (personally I don't care and would not ask, although on the 2 occasions I specifically sought gynaecological advice the male gynaecologist was far more sympathetic and,unlike the female gynaecologist , solved my problem) but the assumption that all or the majority of trans healthcare professionals will be up to no good does not sit well.