Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

Can and does, Cote, but only with proper staffing levels and nothing else coming up to get in the way of proper monitoring. Eg I would put good money on the example quoted way upthread of a massive post-operative hemorrhage being due to overstretched staff rather than nasty transphobes refusing to provide proper care

Ok Cote, I'm not suggesting it can't happen. I'm just saying that in my experience, having worked in hospitals since the late 1990s, the reality is that a lot of patient deterioration is spotted by people noticing that 'the bloke in the corner looks a bit off' and asking someone to help. In many cases it will be the cleaner, quite happily mopping the floor, suddenly noticing that the patient in that chair/bed looks very unwell and telling a nurse/care assistant, who may well have been stuck behind some curtains for 20 minutes helping someone with a wash.

As Laith-Asheley will have no working penis and the same low levels of violent and sexual, as any other biological woman, sharing a ward with Laith-Asheley would be fine.

As it seems that all women are going to be upset by men in the wards, in one form or another, I vote to keep trans men in with us. As it is much safer to share with women who think they are men, than men who think they are women.

Same goes for bathrooms and changing rooms. I vote to keep trans men in with us and our bathrooms penis free.

violent and sexual crime

Good post, Vincent

I'm tired of this crap too

As babies said, it's not how a person looks that's the problem.

I've been in hospital in a couple of countries while having my kids. My son has been in hospital in the UK. I was actually checked more often in my private room than on my ward bed in the UK - plus I was wheeled straight to the ward after my CS in the UK, but kept in recovery for 45 minutes (Similar to Cote - until I could wiggle my toes) when I was going into a private room.

On the other hand, I also see where Lougle's coming from, because my son was in a side ward (2 beds, but right by the nurses station and with windows) while he was serious, and then moved out to the general kids ward when not - and I noticed that both the cleaners, and the people serving food, and the nurses all kept an eye on people on the ward and heard them mention concerns more than once, so I can also see that it's helpful to have people out in the open. In fact, in the UK, when I was ready to be discharged they parked me in a side room on the maternity ward and promptly forgot me until I picked up my baby and just went to leave!

And all of this still makes no difference to the fact that women want women's wards, and that's fine.

Whenever I had a gynae procedure, (unrelated to childbirth), the entire ordeal was made easier by the fact that the gynaecologist was a woman and the two nurses were women.

I would have felt uncomfortable if the nurses had been male (sorry, but it's true), but I would have felt 10 times worse if it had been a transwoman. Partly because I have no idea if they have AGP and partly because them claiming womanhood, whilst I am in a position which ONLY a woman would ever be in would make the context impossible to deal with. It's just a mind fuck.

I have found that the only way that I can deal with gynae stuff without it being completely traumatic is to insist on female HCPs (the one exception being a near emergency situation, where I would have let the whole All Blacks team in the room if it would have helped sort out the problem)

But a transman who looked like Laith (admittedly, he is rare and most do not pass nearly so well) isn't going to help me relax and get through the ordeal. I'm still going to feel the embarassment / loss of dignity / humiliation if I flashed my genitalia getting out of bed in the middle of the night to go the bathroom in hospital, or my nipples while I'm trying to get my newborn latched. I would feel uncomfortable if he walked across the ward from having a shower with just a towel around his waist to get changed in his cubicle - because I would think he was a man. My spidey senses might tingle that he was a transman, but possibly not if I was particularly poorly

I'd hope that if someone who looked like Leith was in a female ward any patient who asked would be reassured that Leith is a transman and entitled to be there. That would put my mind at rest.

I need a smear. My GP surgery has a female and a male practice nurse. They have told me that I am not able to insist that I have the smear done by the female who I need to meet first. This is despite me disclosing a long history of sexual violence from men. I have to find an alternative, possibly private way round it. I would feel equally distressed if a MtT nurse was potentially going to do it. So yeah, women's needs trump feelz

Xenophile

That's so shit. FFS. What would a man do if he had to have a prostate exam and the person standing in front of him was male and highly camp. ( i'm not being homophobic here, I'm just making a point)

According to the nhs website http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Cervical-screening-test/Pages/Introduction.aspx 'you can ask to have a female doctor or nurse'. Surely that's not supposed to mean, you can ask but be refused?

Xeno - I've asked male doctors to leave the room and refused treatment from male doctors. I would tell them that I won't have the smear if they cannot accomodate my request, and I would be finding a new practice. I would have thought that with the incentives that GPs get for meeting their targets on smears they could be flexible

Datun - you can't discriminate against an HCP on grounds of sexuality

Xeno - that's terrible. It's always been women doing my smears except for one time - and I think it's notable that the bloke is the only one who didn't warm up the metal thingy (although they were all painful until I'd had my first kid, so in that respect, there was no difference at least) - in fact I really like the nurse at my clinic - we always have a good chat (! yes, even when she's down in my nethers having a rummage!), interestingly she used to be a health visitor for a while, but went back to this because the hours and pay are better - pity, because she's such a down to earth, sensible person I bet she was a fantastic HV.

Is there a friendly receptionist that can maybe tell you which day the woman works vs. the man (perhaps I'm lucky, but all but one receptionist at my place are awesome too - super helpful and sensible)

Oleannas - I confess, I use the idea of a slightly drunk, gay rugby team as the thought experiment for men when describing how it can be for women in a male environment... Men often have trouble imagining how intimidating it can be to be among people who are bigger than you, who are in a 'flirtatious' mood, but seem to find it easier to imagine given that example.

What would a man do if he had to have a prostate exam and the person standing in front of him was male and highly camp. ( i'm not being homophobic here, I'm just making a point)

No , actually you are being homophobic.

I typed a post, but lost it so if this comes up twice, apologies.

Lass and Olennas

So if I had to have a smear test with a trans woman who had AGP how could I make a man understand what it meant, by reversing the situation?

I understand that you can't discriminate are based on someone's sexuality so where does that leave me having intimate exam by somebody who was being sexually aroused by because they have a sexual fetish?

So if I had to have a smear test with a trans woman who had AGP how could I make a man understand what it meant, by reversing the situation?

Oh yes, because all camp, gay men just can't help but get turned on when checking out another man's prostrate in a professional, medical situation. I sincerely hope your example would fail miserably to make my son or husband understand your point.

For goodness sake Lass. I'm not for one minute suggesting that, as I hope you know. I'm trying to convey a parallel, where a man might feel uncomfortable knowing that someone would be sexually aroused by giving him an intimate exam. It's not in the slightest bit lost on me that there are really no parallels! Unless you invent one.

It wouldn't bother me at all if a lesbian give me a smear test. In fact our practice nurse is a lesbian.

So what would you use as a parallel example?

And if I don't want an intimate exam by a transwoman with AGP - apparently that is Discrimation due to sexuality (definition: capacity for sexual feelings).

And it's not due to someone's sexual orientation, whether they're gay or straight. It's due to how they present (gay or straight) and whether that presentation gives rise to discomfort based on whether or not they feel aroused. I could have used a hyper sexualised woman nurse in my example but it wouldn't convey the same point.

If I have offended anyone I'm sorry. I hope you've all seen enough of my posts to know that.

I'm finding it difficult to work out what point you are trying to make other than it is apparently possible to determine what a health care worker's turn ons are just by looking.

I'm still going to feel the embarassment / loss of dignity / humiliation if I flashed my genitalia getting out of bed in the middle of the night to go the bathroom in hospital, or my nipples while I'm trying to get my newborn latched.

You feel humiliated when someone sees your genitalia?

Datun , cross posts, ok.

Lass

I may have worded it clumsily but this is my point. As the majority of late transitioning males have AGP, then a transwoman doing intimate exam is cause for concern for females, if you can't insist on an actual female.

Although men generally have sympathy for this point, they are largely unbothered - because there is no real parallels. So I invented one. The concept might be homophobic, but that wasn't my point. Nor was it intended to convey my personal feelings.