General Trans Discussion Thread

[IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat]

I seem to be hitting #PeakTrans on a daily basis now and thought it would be useful to have another general thread to discuss/post/share

If you haven't seen Magdalen Berns' recent blog post it's really worth a look

I suspect that young men / boys are not that concerned because ... well male privilege, really. They get to keep their spaces and no one is seriously suggesting that they'd be transphobic for not having sex with a transwoman (with or without a dick). There is no equivalent of 'cotton ceiling', I don't think. The transactivists have put more demands on women - that we have sex with them we are lesbian, that we let them into our spaces, that we fight for them with our energy. I see a lot of young women conflicted over this issue. Many are textbook lib fems, but others are variously angry and afraid, especially young lesbian women because there are no lesbian spaces anymore. There are 'queer' spaces that tend to be domindated by gay men and women's spaces that are dominated by TRAs. Other feminist women who want to be activists for women over traditional women's concerns are also ansty because every time they make a claim for women's abortion rights (for example) they have to spend most of the time accommodating the demands of transwomen and transmen to make it all about them. TL;DR - trans impacts on young women more than young men.

amaravatti

Funnily enough it was a fairly light bulb moment for me. He was acting a little defensively, because I was talking about 'men'. I watched myself take great pains to explain in a moderate, NAMALT, way. Wrapping it up in words which were palatable in order to get my point across.

Fair enough, he is an 18-year-old boy. That evening, I had dinner with a girlfriend who was unaware of the issues. She connected the dots immediately, almost before I finished my sentence.

Funny that.

Btw, 'women's hour' referred to women as menstruaters yesterday...

Ah wait! It was BBC radio 4, not strictly Women's Hour...

Thanks MrsGlitter - great article.

Datun it can get very frustrating. A couple of good friends agree with me but it's not something up for debate at our Feminist Society which has decreed that anyone who "defines as a woman" is a woman. I was once pulled up for daring to say that abortion and periods affect women as this is apparently transphobic

I'm not sure why many feminists of my age seem to go down this line, I think a lot of it comes from the vocal social media presence of trans activists. Also it's worrying as there could be other girls at my school who could be Spartacus but are only given one side and told that to think anything else is "transphobic".

If someone calls me a 'menstruator' I will fucking punch them
I'm in menopause- is that not a thing anymore? or is it until men work out how they can have that as well?

IAmAmy

It's a shame, Amy. What do they make of the cotton ceiling?

And would they date transman, with a vagina (male vagina, of course).

IAmAmy, one of my young adult sons vaguely assumed that "transwomen are women" until I challenged him to come up with a definition of the word "woman" that covered not only every single woman on the planet but transwomen too. My definition was adult human female, which excluded transwomen while including transmen. His definition couldn't go round in circles, so "a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" is no good because you're still left without a definition of woman.

He went off for a good old think. When he came back he told me I was right. He couldn't do it. It became meaningless.

My son prides himself on his logical thinking. You may have already tried this on your peers, but if not it might be worth a punt.

Datun I'm not sure as I must confess I had to look it up just now to find out what it was! I very much doubt those who are heterosexual would date a transman and those who are bi or lesbian would date a transwoman though I suppose it's unfair of me to assume...

Prawn that sounds like it worked well with your son and I take it he now realises how ridiculous the "defines as a woman" thing is! I'd like to try it. It's difficult (and maybe weak of me) but I don't really want to be known as a "transphobe" or bigot. I used to challenge a bit but it's just so set in stone, debate is pretty much now allowed on this one issue. I might try having conversations with more about it and see how they define "woman".

I'm not suggesting you put yourself at risk, Amy. It's horrible when you feel out of step with your social circle, and fears of ostracism may not be baseless. You need to choose your moments.

It definitely worked on my son. He convinced his GF too. Now he's quite interested in snippets I pass on. Not very interested, but quite.

Another thank you for that link MrsGlitterpants

Prawn it is, I'm lucky that a couple of my best friends do agree though! It's frustrating on the whole as to me it's diverting feminism and stopping us from talking about vital issues, setting us back in many ways. Your son sounds great! Becoming quite interested is how it starts

And another thank you from me. Brilliant article

You're so right about it wasting time, Amy. There are so many important topics feminism addresses that aren't getting the attention they warrant. However I feel that this issue, however small a percentage of the population it may represent, is by far the most important for feminists today.

The erasure of women's issues, our sports, our spaces will result in an inability to campaign on any topic if the word "woman" becomes meaningless. If transmen are men, the word "men" also becomes meaningless too. We end up with a situation in which gender is 72 icecream flavours while sex doesn't exist among human beings.
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Eventually the world will register that words for "adult with female reproductive system" and "adult with male reproductive system" are needed, and we'll have to scratch our heads as to what those words might be.

Glad you enjoyed the article.

Macmillan Cancer Support have launched a new campaign aimed at women about examining your 'ladyparts' to try to detect female cancers earlier. As soon as I saw it I KNEW trans folk would make it all about them. And lo and behold, on the Macmillan FB page the SECOND comment is from a transmen saying men have wombs too and do not consider them lady parts.

Why do they have to make EVERYTHING - cancer, FGM, abortion, menstruation, ALL ABOUT THEM?

I am SICK of it.

I know that this offends some people, but I think that having kids really brings home to you how dangerous being a woman is. How impacted by pregnancy and children your life is. Obviously, I'd imagined it, I thought I had a pretty good grip, I've been a woman a while, I was suitably worried about it happening when it shouldn't etc. Yet still, there were times when I realised I really wasn't prepared for whatever (the first was being unable to leave the house when I had the first time of a newborn sleeping long enough for me to gather my thoughts, and think that a wander down to the corner shop would be nice, but DP was at work, and I couldn't without mucking about with and waking up a baby)

I think that men are so sheltered from this aspect of womanhood in general. Not only have they never worried about getting pregnant, they've never carried a child inside them with all those health concerns and pressures, and, more often than not, they take a second chair when it comes to looking after the baby once it arrives. I think that's why they, and then transwomen don't realise how core biology is to women, because it really is a secondary thing, they're all about fire and forget because they can be.

Their lives won't change as they get their first periods, carry a child, and then go through menopause. Things just get more/less sensitive, slower to work, but largely stay the same.

Someone in my family is currently trans-gendering male to female, and we have talked quite a bit about the issues.

In relation to removal of the penis, the reason why so few have had the operation is because it is:

• very expensive, to most prohibitively expensive; and
• very risky.

Once a man starts to take the female hormones, they grow breasts, bodily hair reduces, the body shape changes and the penis gets very, very small. I personally would worry about someone at that point using a male toilet.

A part of the vulnerability may be the hormones - I suffer slightly just before my period, and was slightly off kilter when pregnant - the hormones taken when transitioning have a similar affect, I believe, except stronger, and all the time.

Many trans people are extremely, extremely critical of any abusive trans activists.

To the best of my knowledge, the men who are referred to in the video are cross dressers, which is completely different from transgendering.

Where people are transitioning later on in life, having spent their entire previous life sucking it up, many will have children, who will be dealing with some very difficult possibly conflicted feelings, and I do worry about how they may feel reading some of the Spartacus comments.

"cross dressers, which is completely different from transgendering. "

Considering that no surgery or even hormones are necessary these days for someone to call themselves transgender, what exactly is the difference?

Is it that the latter actually think they are women whereas the former know they are men?

"the penis gets very, very small"

I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, but I don't think you actually know what you are talking about here.

Go on a porn site and watch just a few seconds of transwomen in action, and do please report back on how "very very small" you find those penises.

Amy

I don't want to encourage you to visit anything dark, but there is a very definite underbelly to why some people transition. It sounds like your friends are still at the, let's call it the happy clappy stage. Where everything is about inclusivity and live and let live. And of course, there are many trans people for whom this is an appropriate response. Unfortunately, it is now including people with a far darker motive. Hence the polarising of opinion. It kind of depends on which transpersonal you spoke to or read about last.

You are probably right to not engage. And I'm glad you're finding refuge here.

Prawn I definitely agree, it's become a very important issue given the impact it could potentially have on women's spaces, services, also the idea that there are such things as a "girl's mind" and "boy's mind" is incredibly regressive. Things already seem to be going that way (the Green Party and the "non-men" term being a recent example I can think of).

Datun I think that's true, it seems like it's (not sure if this is the right word but...) "fashionable" for feminists of my age to be overly concerned with being "pro-trans". I struggle to phrase that right as I wouldn't want to seem like I think "anti-trans" is a good thing, more the obsession with being "trans-inclusive feminists". I find so much of it worrying not least the erasure of women, women's issues and what that could lead to.

It's great for me to be able to discuss it and much more here!

Iamamy Like you, I appreciate these threads. I cant discuss at work and the last supposed radfem friend I spoke to said she didnt understand and she didnt feel threatened at all. She is the cleverest woman I know.

Thelilywhite

I know how that feels. It's very isolating. Give it time. People are reaching peak trans on a daily basis.