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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do feminist really want?

447 replies

Nrdad1 · 21/10/2016 22:00

Hi I'm just a man how is wondering what feminists really want?

What are you fighting for or against in this day and age?

OP posts:
JenLindleyShitMom · 22/10/2016 10:07

I'm done with this

Hu-fucking-rray! That took a lot longer than it should have done.

Is that really how you believe you will get things to change

No, no-one else expected your presence here to change anything. That was just you. Glad you've realised your mistake.

BeMorePanda · 22/10/2016 10:23

Broken records are so early 80's

FreshwaterSelkie · 22/10/2016 10:27

I'll tell you what I'd like to change, nrbitterdad.

I'd like men to make the minimum fucking effort to understand the most basic stuff feminism before they front up in here and insult us all. That'd be great. Why don't you start there?

Meh, obvious troll is obvious. Go and tell Mike Buchanan or Roosh V or whoever your hero is that MN is still a nest full of vipers who hurt your feelings.

Batteriesallgone · 22/10/2016 11:10

No, no-one else expected your presence here to change anything. That was just you. Glad you've realised your mistake.

Love that. Have had so many discussions about feminism with men who seem to think if I can convince them feminism is justified, they will use their Man Power for Change. Until they get bored or want attention from a woman again, natch.

midcenturymodern · 22/10/2016 11:20

There are lots of books and other resources about feminist theory. You could fuck off and read some and come back with an OP that isn't a load of whining half truths and demands to be entertained and spoonfed without having to do any critical thinking or analysis of your own.

That's what I, as a feminist, would like. Men to do some thinking that goes beyond lamentation and hand wringing and fear that their privilege will be taken. I want 'not all men' to not be trotted out as if it's a thing that 'yes, all women' should take seriously. I want people who moan that men don't have DV shelters and support groups to set them up instead of expecting women to do it for them. I want men, pre-divorce, to pull their weight rather than moaning post divorce that they didn't get residency. I don't want feelings and half true anecdotes to be presented as facts. I want people to fuck right off with the idea that western women should be grateful that our sisters have it worse and I want people who refer to 'Africa' as a country and expect to be taken seriously to give their heads a wobble. And READ, it is the only way.

Dervel · 22/10/2016 11:46

I am a separated dad, from difficult circumstances which some posters here are acquainted with. Not a one of them have been anything other than kind to me. This hypocracy you are accusing simply doesn't exist.

However when you set up your rough experiences as an either/or proposition. I.E I'm a man and have had a rough deal one time therefore feminism is invalid you raise heckles.

If your broader point is about how men get trounced in family courts, then yes let's have that discussion. Absolutely there are some women who commit parental alienation. Yet using them as a scapegoat to obsfucate the real issue is unhelpful.

The real reason the statistics scew against men so dramatically is fewer men do the bulk of childcare, and courts favour maintaining the status quo upon relationship breakdown. This is the child focused approach and also the correct one.

You want to challenge the status quo, campaign for more men to take the career hit, take up parental leave. Be involved dad's basically. To default everything to women then on separation to expect a totally different setup like 50/50 or shared care as I believe it's called now is blue sky thinking.

I'm not applying this to you specifically I don't know you from Adam. You may be a very involved father, but your tone is dripping with contempt for women without doing the due diligence of really exploring the issues. If you do that you'll find a lot of feminists allied to your endeavours. Then you need to reciprocate and try to see things from their point of view.

BIWI · 22/10/2016 11:55
HillaryFTW · 22/10/2016 12:17
HillaryFTW · 22/10/2016 12:18

Ha! That's the "whoo-hoo" whoops!

NameChange30 · 22/10/2016 12:19

Apparently our "friend" has now been banned but the thread is still here. Interesting. Maybe MNHQ want us to carry on the party without him?!

Batteriesallgone · 22/10/2016 12:27

Well it is quite a funny thread Grin

Plus the amazing revelations about sizes of Lindt statuettes. Every days a school day on mumsnet.

SomeDyke · 22/10/2016 13:47

it was Godels incompleteness theorem and the twanging of dungaree straps that got me here.................... and chocolate of course!

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 23/10/2016 20:00

Did someone say chocolate?

Great posts from Buffy and Dervel.

MostlyHet · 23/10/2016 20:04
Xenophile · 23/10/2016 20:38

So, anyway....

To recap, what feminists mostly want from the OP is for him to fuck right off.

And look at some basics about a political movement he's going to try and slag off.

And, if he's feeling particularly astute, he could look at some actual research and not what his pal Bucky Mike has decided is the truth.

He could take his sock puppets with him.

ITCouldBeWorse · 23/10/2016 22:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

devire · 25/10/2016 11:07

Whilst the objective of making men more sympathetic to the notion of feminist values is, in my opinion, not only desirable but imperative the reality is that it is not likely to be achieved as a short-term objective. Human nature is such that it will only be adopted by a substantial number of males over a protracted period of time. Personally, I have come across a lot of men who have paid lip-service to the concept of gender equality when in a social environment where it was the most appropriate response but, their subsequent words and actions have revealed an ingrained male gender-biased stance. This is not a case of trying to attribute blame; these men have, through no fault of their own, been brought up as members of a society where male values have always had a higher status. For them to begin to change their position regarding gender equality en-mass it would not only need education in the merits of the subject but also recognition that for them to each acknowledge this potential for a realignment of gender roles, as a member of their male peer group, would no longer be seen as being akin to an act of treason against all men. Men have, notionally, been 'in charge' of society for millennia, they are the gender who have determined the rules that life's game has always been played by; why would they willingly accept a reversal of the rules of the game and, at the same time, hand the ball over to the other side?

For a true change in the nature of men, and thus the interrelationship between men and women, the reality is that it may well take generations and a sense of determination amongst the would-be revolutionaries – thus this time-frame would make them, perhaps, not revolutionaries but more like 'evolutionaries' . Not the sort of time-line that most feminists would, ideally, find acceptable. At an evolutionary level though, a change of relative values between the genders within a generation or two would, nonetheless, indicate a meteorically fast timetable for the re-ordering of society .

I have spent very many years motivated by, and researching into, gender equality and have come to the conclusion that there is no quick fix. When it comes to such radical change as global gender equality, revolution will not work; indeed, it is more likely to cause a form of civil war between the genders – but, some form of a more rapid mode of the evolution process could be applied to our gender roles and may well be the way to resolve the situation, the way to find a long term solution.

Exactly how this permanent re-ordering of social and gender-biased roles might be best achieved is another very interesting, complex and potentially controversial subject as is whether society as a whole could, or should, find the motivation to prioritise feminism above all else.

MostlyHet · 25/10/2016 11:15

Hello, new poster. What brought you to mumsnet, and why the feminism section in particular?

WinchesterWoman · 25/10/2016 11:35

Marking place for reading later.

devire · 25/10/2016 12:15

MostlyHet ...

IMHO feminism is an important concept and deserves serious discussion.

MostlyHet · 25/10/2016 12:23

How nice. I'm sure we all feel suitably validated by your opinion. Are you a man or a woman, btw?

Dervel · 25/10/2016 12:32

devire I don't know about most of what you posted, it all sounds way over my head. I don't even grasp a lot of feminism if I am totally honest, but I can understand specific issues when it's laid out. Two women a week dead at the hands of partners/ ex-partners, women over-represented in low paying jobs and under-represented in higher paying ones.

I can also understand that in the face of those things a natural human reaction will be rage and frustration. I cannot help but feel that shutting down a place that expresses that in the name of being palatable to men somehow loses something crucial. Quite aside from the fact that it re-inforces the paradigm that men are the dominant ones.

My rough pencil outline in my own head when it comes to gender inequality is that men and women have always been fundamentally equal in nature, but society has not accepted that. History is replete with examples of women who have made colossal contributions to every human endeavour, but we (collectively) downplay this at almost every opportunity. For me it's not about taking power from men, but forcing a recognition of the inherent power and potential of women. Which at the end of the day is the same as men.

The two biggest roadblocks to that are men who don't recognise it, and women who don't recognise it in themselves. If I went through life being told how I am not fantastic, awesome and full of potential I would be epically pissed off. If I was THEN told I couldn't be angry about that, cos it might piss of the powers that be and I can't really be awesome, fantastic and fulfill that potential without them signing off on it I would say fuck that noise, and tell anyone who suggested that "fuck you, fuck the horse you rode in on, and fuck the road you used to ride it here".

For me it's less about sympathising with feminism and more about viewing women as part of my in-group. I think that can be accomplished irrespective of which ideaologies you subscribe or don't subscribe to.

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