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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

785 replies

BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 18:38

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3859618/You-caused-son-great-harm-insisting-raising-girl-Boy-seven-sent-live-father-mother-raised-daughter.html

hmmm. ok so its daily mail reporting but I am conflicted
perhaps good if child was being pushed into something he wasnt
but wtf with the boringly stereotypical insistance on the type of toys played with

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Felascloak · 01/11/2016 07:16

Huffpost, pinknews, everydayfeminism and plenty of other LGBT safe space sites do not have anything like this on them. They have informative articles which echo the right course of action

Everyday feminism??!!! Grin Grin Grin

ArcheryAnnie · 01/11/2016 07:18

Huffpost, pinknews, everydayfeminism and plenty of other LGBT safe space sites do not have anything like this on them.

ATransMum I have been knocking around the LGBT+ movement for, ooh, about 35 years, and used to read Pink News when it was an actual newspaper on actual paper. It's a news site, mostly run by gay men who have no real interest in or understanding of women's politics, and that noise you year is the hollow laughter of women around the movement when they hear you describe it as an "LGBT safe space". I would be fascinated if they've ever printed a thoughtful piece on why dysphoria in children doesn't always mean they are trans - so if you have one, please do feel free to link it here.

"Everyday feminism" is a snake oil site designed to make women feel shit about themselves so they can then sell their self-help courses to them. It is widely mocked by actual feminists, who can see the nonsense it peddles. My own point of realising what a bunch of terrible clickbait bastards they are was when I found myself reading a perfectly serious EverydayFeminism article on why mixed marriages (Black people going out with white people) are bad. I sat up, thought "what a bunch of racist bollocks" and have never taken anything they have said seriously again.

I've never seen a "why transition isn't always the answer" article on HuffPo, but again, I'd be really interested to read one.

ArcheryAnnie · 01/11/2016 07:26

To all the new posters here from Mermaids: I understand what tubas is saying - a group where you find other parents who are going through similar things to you, in a difficult world, is an immensely valuable thing, and I understand why you feel great loyalty towards it and incredibly defensive of it.

I think if Mermaids had remained a parent support circle, that would be one thing, though many of us would still have very serious questions about the homophobia amongst it's spokespeople, and the dangerous narrative (trans your child or they will die) it appears to be promoting to the parents who come for help. But they have set themselves up as experts in this field, when they are not, and on the back of that they are trying to establish norms in public policy which would harm children if they took off.

Felascloak · 01/11/2016 07:26

Point 3 in the animal rights article is particularly informative

Amalfimamma · 01/11/2016 07:34

Huffpost, pinknews, everydayfeminism and plenty of other LGBT safe space sites do not have anything like this on them. They have informative articles which echo the right course of action

All sites with no political or social agenda to peddle then. Completely unbiased and telling the truth because it's what you want to hear. It's like saying that the daily mail is run by communists

ArcheryAnnie · 01/11/2016 07:39

Felascloak if by "informative" you mean "batshit on almost every possible axis", then I agree entirely!

Amalfimamma · 01/11/2016 07:40

Felascloak

I have a feeling something very strong was smoked before dotting down that rant of hatred, misogyny and racism

JedRambosteen · 01/11/2016 08:33

Anyone having flashbacks to the previous lengthy discursive Feminist Chat that ATransMum derailed?

JedRambosteen · 01/11/2016 08:35

There is a "thread" above.

schmack · 01/11/2016 08:54

But what I know is no matter how much boys clothes, lego, star wars toys etc you throw at a child, you can not MAKE them feel like a boy

God they just don't get it do they?

Let boys and girls play with whatever they want ffs!

FurryGiraffe · 01/11/2016 08:54

Can I ask a question of those criticising the judge for 'gagging' the mother?

What do you think is the alternative? Surely, whatever you think of the substantive judgment concerning J, it cannot be in any child's best interests to have highly personal details of their life splashed all over the Internet. Even if you think the judge has made the wrong decision about J's living arrangements, how could it possibly be appropriate for M to expose J's childhood to permanent (because once it's out there, there's no going back) public scrutiny? Or do you think the parent's right to make decisions for their child outweighs the child's entitlement to privacy?

FurryGiraffe · 01/11/2016 08:55

Can I ask a question of those criticising the judge for 'gagging' the mother?

What do you think is the alternative? Surely, whatever you think of the substantive judgment concerning J, it cannot be in any child's best interests to have highly personal details of their life splashed all over the Internet. Even if you think the judge has made the wrong decision about J's living arrangements, how could it possibly be appropriate for M to expose J's childhood to permanent (because once it's out there, there's no going back) public scrutiny? Or do you think the parent's right to make decisions for their child outweighs the child's entitlement to privacy?

FurryGiraffe · 01/11/2016 08:55

Apologies- app told me the first post hasn't posted

Fourormore · 01/11/2016 09:03

I don't get all this "mums side of the story" whining. Has the father posted his "side of the story" publically anywhere? Is the father approaching the media? Or is he perhaps bound by the same restrictions as the mother?

ageingrunner · 01/11/2016 09:16

The mum's 'side of the story' is in the judgment, surely? I.e. she thinks the child is a girl, but there doesn't seem to be any real reason for that. It's not like the judge didn't speak to her or she wasn't involved in the court case Confused

Gidds · 01/11/2016 09:17

I have to say, that court report was hard reading and actually very sad. I think personally, based upon what I read, that the judge has made the right decision overall based upon what is seen an an unhealthy relationship and overpowered by the mothers views. As we all know, children spend time to-ing and fro-ing on what they like, don't like and anything Inbetween. I have 4 children, my eldest used to love his pink buggy and baby doll, my 2nd eldest is/was a tomboy but liked to occasionally wear princess dresses, my 2nd youngest acts quite infeminate but wants to join the RAF plays war games with toy soldiers but also loves horse riding and the youngest wears nail varnish, likes to wear high heels, plasters his face in make up, occasionally wears my only feminine clothes. Myself, I see myself as a bit of a Tomboy, like helping to fix cars, drink pints, prefer mud to being squeaky clean, wear steel toe capped boots, nails always bitten down, rarely wear makeup etc etc, but am very comfortable at being female. None of my children have expressed any other desire to be any other gender except their own.

However, recently my 2nd eldest based upon us finding worrying stuff and me seeking urgent advice has expressed her desire to change gender. This is where my contact with Mermaids began

I had a series of telephone conversations with them explaining about what was going to. I found them incredibly helpful and was told numerous times that they were not qualified health professionals, and could only advise based upon their own experiences. I was advised to contact CAHMS, but at this point we were under their councellors. It was also advised to me that this was a forum to give non-judgemental support from others who have been or are in the same situation.

The trouble is, as I see in this case, a place that wants to support people and give a safe haven for people that want advice or just to vent, can only advise based upon the information given. I obviously do not know personally what was said by this particular mother on the forum, but if she went on and stated that Tavistock advised to let her child transgress or that the authorities were being discriminative, or even that she had been to CAHMS, who are the people on Mermaids to know any different?

It appears from what I read in the report, that the mother has her own issues mainly I suspect based upon her dislike of her ex partner. It also appears that the people trained to stop abuse actually failed quite miserably , even with so many people including schools highlighting their worries. I personally think that this is where the buck should really stop and I'm glad that intervention was involved thankfully (or hopefully) before any serious impaction and with any luck the child can grow into a well rounded person.

As I say, I can only advise of my personal experience, but have at no time felt that I need to push my child into any gender and have infact been advised to just go with the flow and continue to just be supportive of my child's current choices Smile

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 01/11/2016 09:17

Isn't it quite standard for family courts to be restricted re identification/reporting?

Fourormore · 01/11/2016 09:19

Yes, Beyond, it is.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/11/2016 09:25

I obviously do not know personally what was said by this particular mother on the forum, but if she went on and stated that Tavistock advised to let her child transgress or that the authorities were being discriminative, or even that she had been to CAHMS, who are the people on Mermaids to know any different?

That is a reasonable point, but if that were the case I wouldn't be expecting Mermaids to be disagreeing with the verdict and saying that the judge and the rest of the world were transphobic, and that the mother had been gagged.

If Mermaids were a reputable organisation Id be expecting their post on Facebook press release to be apologetic and concerned, stating that they has very obviously got it wrong in this case, and that they would be tightening up on their safeguarding policy (do they even have a safeguarding policy?)

ageingrunner · 01/11/2016 09:36

It was quite striking on newsnight that when susie green was asked about desistance rates amongst children who had been involved with mermaids, the only answer she could give was 'about 6'
Which is probably fair enough (just about) if they were only a parent support forum, but nowhere near good enough for an organisation that is getting lottery funding and being presented as experts.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/11/2016 09:41

It was quite striking on newsnight that when susie green was asked about desistance rates amongst children who had been involved with mermaids

As far as I remember the question was about desistance rates in general not just Mermaids, which made it even more striking that Green had to fumble for anecdata from a small self selecting group, whereas Davies Arai knew the results of the actual scientific studies.

Gidds · 01/11/2016 09:41

Quite possibly. Unfortunately I haven't read Mermaids response to the outcome of this case so cannot really comment on this. I will however endeavour to have a look.

On my part, after seeing comments like Mermaids is a cult or brain washing people, I just felt it right to comment on my own experience and just speak out that I haven't found the organisation to be anything of the sort that has been stated.

Gidds · 01/11/2016 09:43

Sorry, my response was to itsallgoingtobefine Smile

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/11/2016 09:44

Mermaids statement:

PRESS RELEASE
23 OCTOBER 2016

Parents fearful in supporting transgender children following High Court ruling

Parents of gender questioning and transgender children have expressed serious concerns, following publication of a High Court ruling in which a gender questioning child was removed from their mother on the basis that, in allowing the child to express gender non-conforming behaviours, the mother was in some way making her child transgender.

Social services found no evidence to support the threshold of any significant or other harm to the child and indeed judged her to be a loving and caring mother who had taken active steps to protect her child from bullying and was home educating them to a high standard.

Following publication of the ruling by Mr Justice Hayden, the transgender and LGBTQ community together with their allies have questioned the Judgement

One of the first to comment was Susie Green, CEO of Mermaids, the national UK charity that supports children, teens and families of transgender and gender questioning young people. Susie is available for interview, email [email protected] Susie commented:
“This case highlights the challenges of how professionals across a number of agencies including the Courts, understand and respond to issues relating to gender identity. This is a complex case, many aspects of which are not reflected in the judgement. Unfortunately, the Court did not request any expertise to be provided either from this organisation, or from the national centre for supporting children with gender issues, the Tavistock GIDS. There is also a body of international experts, commentary and research in this field, none of which has been formally accessed.

“We know from experience, having worked with hundreds of young people, and from international research that very young children can express gender non-conforming behaviours. The stress and isolation that families can feel when their child experiences gender identity challenges at any age can be immense. It must be appreciated that this matter involved parents who had separated in very acrimonious circumstances. “There have been a number of unsubstantiated allegations made against the mother which have been presented as fact in the judgement. What is clear is that the child’s voice appears to have been lost in the face of a bitter parental dispute. Mermaids would urge the Courts to respect the child’s human rights and that the child remains central to the entire proceedings.

Mermaids is aware that the announcement of the ruling was quickly followed by the creation of an online petition demanding justice for the mother and her child, which received over 3,000 signatures within hours, as parents of transgender children and their supporters feared for the human rights repercussions. Many voiced their concerns within protected social media groups, worried that by supporting their own children, they too may now be accused of child abuse.

Commenting within a closed forum, one parent of a young transgender child equated the current struggle as the ‘defining civil rights battle for the 21st century’, posting:
“Our children and families face hostility, criticism, abuse, isolation every day. No loving parent would choose this for their child. I love my daughter to the moon and back. And I will not allow hard won rights and protections to be taken away by ignorance and hate.”

An eminent child psychotherapist and gender specialist, (UKCP, BACP, WPATH), performed an independent assessment for the courts, which concluded that the mother had not instigated the child’s gender identity, that she was merely supportive of her child, and was open to the possibility of the child’s gender identity and expression changing in the future. Separately, the court was also presented with an independent psychiatric report which stated that the mother had no psychiatric issues. However, in contrast to the professionally endorsed reports, there was no substantive evidence provided to show that the child was being emotionally or physically abused, or was ‘at risk’ from her mother. This is not mentioned in the Judgement.

This judgement, as it stands, has significant implications for gender-questioning children and their parents. Indeed, the Social Services division at the heart of this case has already begun to review its policies. Mermaids is committed to supporting all professionals who work with these children and their families so that well informed, measured judgements can be made in accordance with the child’s human rights and the equality laws.

~ ENDS ~
About Mermaids:
Mermaids is a the only national charity offering support, to gender questioning and transgender children, young people and their families in the UK. Mermaids were awarded a National Diversity Award in 2016 and have been nominated for four other awards for the work they do in supporting children and their families to gender questioning and transgender children as well as education and expert support to organisations nationally. Mermaids work at a local, regional and national level to improve outcomes for these children as well with government bodies
A number of the trustees at Mermaids are also professional members of the WPATH ( World Professional Association for Transgender Health) and regularly engage with international leaders. Mermaids presented a national conference on 14th October 2016 attended by a 100 professionals, families and leaders who came together to discuss the needs of such children and ways to support.
Mermaids also offers resources and training to educational establishments and organizations on diversity and support for young transgender people.
The Mermaids charity, represented by CEO Susie Green, is one of the few organisations that is called to give evidence at government level on the topic of transgender issues and children. It is also the only charitable organisation outside of the NHS treatment pathway referenced by the NHS as a supporting body for gender questioning and transgender children.
Mermaids have successfully helped thousands of young people and their families since the charity was formed in 1995
For further information, please contact: [email protected] or visit www.mermaids.org.uk

References:
Mermaids Facebook Post: www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1122167297880045&id=192046384225479
Online petition: www.change.org/p/a-court-justice-for-a-young-trans-girl-that-has-been-taken-from-her-mum-forced-to-live-as-a-boy
England and Wales High Court (Family Division) Decisions www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html PLEASE NOTE: This judgment was delivered in private. The judge has given leave for this version of the judgment to be published on condition that (irrespective of what is contained in the judgment) in any published version of the judgment the anonymity of the children and members of their family must be strictly preserved. All persons, including representatives of the media, must ensure that this condition is strictly complied with. Failure to do so will be a contempt of court