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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

785 replies

BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 18:38

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3859618/You-caused-son-great-harm-insisting-raising-girl-Boy-seven-sent-live-father-mother-raised-daughter.html

hmmm. ok so its daily mail reporting but I am conflicted
perhaps good if child was being pushed into something he wasnt
but wtf with the boringly stereotypical insistance on the type of toys played with

OP posts:
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6
Xenophile · 31/10/2016 20:09

To all the people sent to post from Mermaids:

If you honestly think that the only criticisms of your organisation I've seen are those on this thread then you are sadly mistaken.

The child was not taken away from the mother because she decided that they were transgender, they were taken away because there were long standing concerns of neglect and inappropriate sexual behaviour.

This is not about you. If you actually gave a damn about that child, you wouldn't be making it all about you. That you are tells me everything I need or want to know about your organisation.

darkages I wish you and your child every happiness.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 20:10

The judge in this case has effectively gagged the Mum which has stopped her from being able to defend herself.

And stopped her raking her sad face to the DM and splashing her child over the media.

I personally and other members of Mermaids have known this family for 3 years.

And? Hardly unbiased.

There have been 2 independent assessments done by psychologists who work with gender variant children, both concluded that the child was very clear about who she was and was not being coerced in any way. Mum was supportive but not directing or causing the behaviour. The independent psychiatrist that the judge quotes also stated there is no evidence that the mum caused the gender identity issues.

Psychology like all medicine is not an exact science. Because a psychologist says something is so, does not make it truth. Others in the trial stated that the mother was coaching and pushing the child.

But that didn't get into the judgement. Why weren't the only NHS centre supporting children with gender identity issues not consulted on this case?

Because the mother would not engage with the Tavistock?

The Tavistock are clear that allowing a child to express their gender identity is not a child protection issue

That's because it is not. Transing a child who is not trans most definitely is.

Why did an anonymous allegation of smoking pot that has never been proven or substantiated and is clearly malicious make it into a court judgement?

To help build a picture?

The Mum was subjected to multiple malicious anonymous referrals to social services

As the child was removed from the mother I'd suggest that perhaps they weren't that malicious...

Schools are often unable or unwilling to accept gender issues in children and yet the Mum was criticised for removing the child due to bullying

She was criticised for removing her child from any sort of oversight from those who were (rightly) concerned about the child. See also the Tavistock which she wouldn't engage with.

She has been painted as a controlling and abusive character by events being depicted in such a way that makes her entirely understandable protectiveness seem extreme.

Her protectiveness was extreme. Refusal to engage with school/Tavistock etc is not a good sign?

It wasn't. I was party to meetings that were called without the Mums knowledge or participation, the clear disbelief from the school and GP that a child can express themselves and their assertion that it was the Mum. It wasn't.

When a parent is abusing their child, they are often not involved in discussions. I imagine it is the same for Munchausen's BP.

The child knows who they are. I can only imagine the bewilderment and distress she must be feeling now having being removed in the middle of the night and placed with a father she had not seen in 3 years, who the last time she saw him he was involved in an altercation with her Mum through the car window, the car that she was in.

I'm pretty sure the judgement said J was living perfect happy with his dad who was happy to let him be who he wanted to be.

Let's be clear here. Cross gender play and expression does not constitute gender dysphoria. Kids should be allowed to play with whatever they want without any conclusions being drawn. I love sponge bob, but that doesn't make me a boy.

Completely agree.

Most children are perfectly happy with their birth gender. But some are not. This child consistently and repeatedly asserted that she was a girl.

To his mother. There doesn't seem to be much evidence of them identifying as such to school/father etc

This Mum was undermined by professionals that had no experience or understanding of gender identity issues in children, so Mum protected her child and fought for recognition of her gender expression.

No. This mum was thankfully stopped by professionals who realised that J wasn't trans, and who stopped the mother before she caused too much damage.

The judge said the mum did not follow the Tavistock recommendations. This was because she decided that her 5 year old, who was happy, outgoing and confident, should not be subjected to appointments with a mental health professional who undoubtedly would know nothing about gender issues for no reason.

The Tavistock knows nothing about gender issues? And would not know how to sensitively work with a young child? Really? You don't find it at all concerning that the mother refused to follow recommendations from the one body in this case that might actually know what they are talking about?

The judgement states in one sentence that the child was isolated and not even registered with a GP, then in another line says she was registered as a girl.

They were removed from one GP, then registered at a new one as a girl. Mother covering her tracks, another worrying symptom.

Which is it? This child was home schooled, but was part of a local network of parents and children who met regularly and socialised well. Social services stated in a report that the home schooling Mum was providing was of a high standard.

Apart from the fact she was homeschooling because the school didn't agree J was trans. And apart from the fact she was trying to teach her boy that he was a girl.

The mother has very obvious mental health issues, hopefully she will now have the space and time to get some professional help.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 31/10/2016 20:11

I'm appalled at the behaviour of Mermaids around this case.

If you are a charity whose stated aim is: TO RELIEVE THE MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL STRESS OF ALL PERSONS AGED 19 YEARS AND UNDER WHO ARE IN ANY MANNER AFFECTED BY GENDER IDENTITY ISSUES, AND THERE FAMILIES, AND TO ADVANCE PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THE SAME. (sorry for caps - C&P from Charities commision page) - and a high court judge questions whether you have acted in the best interests of a child, the first thing to do is reflect and review your policies and procedures and whether they are adequate for safeguarding the children of families who turn to you. You need to be prepared to accept that you might have got it wrong because any org is only made of human beings, all of whom make mistakes on occasion. You need to own up to and learn from your mistakes and improve your policies and procedures.

What you don't do is just yell transphobia and refuse to even countenance that the judge had a point. You don't let that dreadful Fox Fisher write that awful open letter in HuffPo - if the mother is barred from discussing her child's gender issues publicly (in the child's interests), what gives Fox the right? You don't doxx a former member of the charity because she says stuff you don't agree with.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a parent-led charity having paid staff per se. What I do think is wrong is presenting yourselves as something you are not - i.e. the go-to experts on gender issues in children when in fact you're a (totally unquestioning) support group for families. I've found iPost's posts really interesting, I can see how this has happened and it's not good.

I'd be inclined to report Mermaids to the Charity Commission but I know from experience it's very hard to get them interested in anything other than financial irregularities.

Tuba Flowers

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 20:15

Mermaids is just a group of parents, from all walks of life, who come together to support each other at a difficult and often frightening time in our lives.

If that was true, it would be fine. However, it appears that mermaids also presents themselves as the go to experts for anything trans, being quoted in the press, and running training courses etc. They also seem to diagnose kids as trans (and do parents ever get told, actually I think your child is not trans"?). They also and most worryingly as pubegardens says, continue to support a mother who's child was removed for abuse , abuse that was apparently not only condoned, but actively supported by Mermaids.

annandale · 31/10/2016 20:37

Mermaids is just a group of parents, from all walks of life, who come together to support each other at a difficult and often frightening time in our lives.

TO RELIEVE THE MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL STRESS OF ALL PERSONS AGED 19 YEARS AND UNDER WHO ARE IN ANY MANNER AFFECTED BY GENDER IDENTITY ISSUES, AND THERE FAMILIES, AND TO ADVANCE PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THE SAME.

And there you are. I can't tell from these statements whether Mermaids recognises that parents supporting each other is not the same thing as working in the best interests of children. Also relieving mental and emotional stress in young people that you don't know that well requires quite a lot of expertise IMO, not to mention a lot of support for the people who are trying to do it.

littleducks · 31/10/2016 20:42

Mermaids will now forever be considered on par with Samaritan's Purse to me after these latest posts

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 20:43

Or perhaps Kids Company (remember them?)

HermioneWeasley · 31/10/2016 20:50

Yes littleducks I was really reminded of SP's tactics on here too.

It's like they think we're stupid and just need speaking to in calm but firm tones, with occasional "think of the children" emotional blackmail appeals thrown in.

Fuck off.

JedRambosteen · 31/10/2016 20:51

Welcome to the influx of Mermaids committee members here to try and change our minds.

There's a term for this kind of lobbying (astroturfing?) and it is not attractive. I also think it is interesting that a pretty considered and thoughtful discussion about the judgement in this very specific case has been turned into a "me, me, me" discussion about Mermaids. Hmm

khaddy123 · 31/10/2016 20:52

I just want to point out that Mermaids offer a valuable service of Advice and information and it is up to you as a family to do what is best for your child. To love and support them. Mermaids are an amazing Charity and I find these negative comments clearly come from people who need educating on the subject of transgender children. I am sure all parents wish it was a choice or a trend but its very real and something that clearly is not a choice.

HermioneWeasley · 31/10/2016 20:58

It never fails to astound me that people can read the intelligent, thoughtful, well researched posts on trans issues and come to the conclusion that we all need more educating.

ArcheryAnnie · 31/10/2016 20:58

and it is up to you as a family to do what is best for your child. To love and support them

Love and support is great, khaddy. Taking as gospel the opinions of an organisation who have an agenda, and no real expertise: not so great. Promoting the narrative that if you don't accept their agenda as gospel truth then children will commit suicide: absolutely appalling.

Felascloak · 31/10/2016 20:58
Hmm
RiverTam · 31/10/2016 20:59

Oh, here's another one. Come on, this is soooo transparent (didya see what I did there??). Do you honestly think anyone is going to change their very valid opinions on Mermaids because of you shower?

Snowshimmer · 31/10/2016 21:04

It's like they think we're stupid and just need speaking to in calm but firm tones, with occasional "think of the children" emotional blackmail appeals thrown in.

Haha yes. I've been reading this thread with an increasingly Hmm face.
Do you all new posters really think your comments will somehow repair the image of Mermaids?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 21:04

At least with all the other Mermaids folk coming over here, they are leaving their wee bubble, they might learn something too.

LittlePaintBox · 31/10/2016 21:11

Mermaids are an amazing charity

Yes, I remember lots of people making a lot of similar noise about Kids Company before it folded up.

Of course if you have benefited from a particular charity, you will think it is wonderful. Looking at it from the outside, I can't help feeling the mother in this case has not, in the long run, been helped very much since she's ended up losing custody of her child.

Datun · 31/10/2016 21:32

It comes to something when a charity has to recruit people to dive bomb a Mumsnet thread instead of standing upright for their own ethos.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 31/10/2016 21:42

Apparently Mermaids will be on Newsnight tonight - could be an interesting watch....

Worldwithlesshate · 31/10/2016 21:52

I am a parent of a young transgender child. I feel very deeply for child J whose voice has not been heard. People comment and are very quick to judge without knowing the full facts, and of course you won't get to hear the facts of the case because the judge has placed a gagging order on the mother, preventing her from telling her side of the story. I find it sad that some people will just follow whatever they read in the media. Can you for a moment imagine that you have been accused of abusing your child? Your child is taken from you. You have accusations made against you for which no evidence is offered and yet is used in judgement. The only evidence presented is heavily biased and all other evidence is totally ignored. Then, you are judged and told you must not speak and have no opportunity to defend yourself. Can you imsgine how all of that feels? The poor child is being torn apart and not once has it been mentioned that anybody has tried to ascertain and understand what he/she/they want.

To address criticism about the Mermaids charity. I honestly don't know what I would have done without their support, their help with understanding what was going on with our child and how to go about getting the help we needed. Mermaids are a vital resource. They have never been anything other than completely professional, kind and compassionate. They do not seek to influence how we interact with our child and have never made suggestions, just listened and provided information. The mutual support we gain from each other as Mermaid parents is invaluable, as I'm sure some of you also do here at mumsnet.

With our child (and we do have others of both sexes) we held off seeking support for several years thinking may be we are wrong, may be our child was just gender atypical, may be things would be different in a year or so. It became increasingly obvious however that our child's outward gender was causing severe distress and unhappiness. What sort if parents would we be if we ignored this? Our child was telling us that they ARE the opposite gender to the one into which they were born. What would be the consequences if we didn't support our child? This was much, much more than a child wanting to dress differently and play with toys usually associated with the opposite gender. It affected their self-esteem, it made them desperately unhappy, it meant they had no friends because they didn't fit in with the peers of their birth gender and were rejected by peers of the other gender. Our child despised their body parts, hated their hair, had no confidence, wouldn't have their photo taken or look in the mirror and rarely ever smiled. Our child stopped participating in a sport they loved because they felt strongly they werr on the wrong team and had zero interest in socialising with these team mates.

Our child didn't have any concept of what 'transgender' was and we knew very little either for that matter. Our child had never watched any reality TV or celebrity programmes and so was not aware of any transgender figure to copy or idolise. We have brought our children up in the same ways. Offering both gender specific and non gender specific clothing, toys and experiences. With support from The Tavistock and Portman Gender Identity Clinic and from Mermaids we have let our child take the lead in who they want to be and how they express themselves. This was far from an easy decision. I have experienced this as a type of grief. I felt desperately sad at the loss of the child I thought I'd had, the name we had so carefully chosen and the hopes and dreams we'd had for them. Over time we have come to see that our child is still with us, still the same bright, cheeky personality with the same potential, just a different gender. I do still get days where I feel sad but my own feelings are far less important than my child's happiness. Our child is now confident in themselves, very happy, outgoing and thriving knowing that we support them in being who they are and whoever they need to be in the future.

I will never apologise for supporting my child or be made to feel bad for doing so. We will love our child unconditionally whatever the future holds. Their future and happiness is what matters most, not what gender they were born into or how they identify.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 31/10/2016 21:53

If Mermaids have a stated aim of supporting both children with gender issues and their families then I hope they have a very clear COI policy. Otherwise they run a real risk of failing to safeguard children. Any charity or org that deals with children or vulnerable adults should have safeguarding as their top priority. Doing harm to your beneficiaries is the worst sort of failure.

I'm bothered by some of the posts by parents connected with Mermaids on here. You're also vulnerable and, given Mermaids has been a lifeline to you, your natural instinct is to want to stick up for them. I understand that, I've been there in a completely different capacity (another peer-support charity). Take a step back and breathe. Remember that you are fighting for your child's wellbeing and that may not always be synonymous with fighting for the charity that has supported you thus far.

FirstShinyRobe · 31/10/2016 21:53

TO RELIEVE THE MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL STRESS OF ALL PERSONS AGED 19 YEARS AND UNDER WHO ARE IN ANY MANNER AFFECTED BY GENDER IDENTITY ISSUES, AND THERE (sic) FAMILIES, AND TO ADVANCE PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THE SAME

Within that, is there any room for gender criticism? I imagine that is a powerful tool in the distress relieving arsenal.

Felascloak · 31/10/2016 22:02

The poor child is being torn apart and not once has it been mentioned that anybody has tried to ascertain and understand what he/she/they want.
This is utter rubbish. The judgment was very clear that the court had asked an experienced and independent psychologist to assess what the child wanted. They concluded there was no evidence they wanted to be anything other than a boy.
Its great you've found support from Mermaids, coming herevents to mix your positive story up with incorrect representation of a court judgment doesn't help their cause.
Mermaids would be better looking at safeguarding procedures and how they can prevent this happening on future rather than insisting they know more about this case than a judge who's been involved in a thorough investigation.
I think the judgement was released precisely to counter this narrative, it's rare for these to be released.

Buffy76 · 31/10/2016 22:14

Its hard to understand what it might be like for a mum listening to her child cry at night about the idea of growing a beard etc, terrified of turning into a man.
Its hard to imagine I know.
But I do know that most people do not hope their child will be trans. They hope its a phase, they hope that the fact the child still likes football etc means they cant really identify as a girl.
There is a HUGE gap between being a tom boy / liking lego or the other way round liking princess stuff etc and actually feeling inside like you were born in the wrong body.
Its so painful to see your child find their gender unbareable.
Please try to imagine, most parents are just doing their best, and most parents would not wish the life of being trans and all the difficulties and discrimination that comes with on their child. All you want is for your child to have as few challenges in life as possible,
But what I know is no matter how much boys clothes, lego, star wars toys etc you throw at a child, you can not MAKE them feel like a boy. Our children are who they are, and most mums are just trying to listen to their children and allow them to feel comfortable.
Its really hard for mums raising children with gender dysphoria. Please try to keep open minded and support them. Thank you xxxx

DrudgeJedd · 31/10/2016 22:15

I hope that the posters who think it is wrong that the mother in this case has been ordered not to identify her child to the press don't have any kind of professional dealings with vulnerable children Hmm