"BDSM is a sexual orientation, not a fetish"

[Felascloak]

An LG BT group in Iceland is including people who identify as BDSM as a sexual identity

grapevine.is/news/2016/03/08/bdsm-in-iceland-joins-up-with-national-queer-organisation/

Maybe I am too old but this seems crazy and i hope it doesnt become wudespread. Firstly I don't want to have to listen as my coworkers/acquaintances "come out" as BDSM. Other people's sex lives are not really my business and I'd feel really uncomfortable. I don't feel like it's the same as coming out gay as when gay people come out its about their whole life and relationships, not what turns them on.
I also think logically if you accept BDSM are a "sexual orientation" then the same caSE could be made for paedophilia and that's something that some paedophiles have been pushing for forever.
The whole thing makes me feel icky.

I understand that some people may feel discriminated for enjoying BDSM because it can be shocking to others in what people enjoy - it certainly is to me. However it is completely different to LGBT. I don't think many LGBT people would agree with its inclusion.

Paedophilia is completely different and can't be rationally compared to either.

I understand that some people may feel discriminated for enjoying BDSM because it can be shocking to others in what people enjoy - it certainly is to me.

Well, yeah, but that's not discrimination.

People are also shocked that I genuinely like broccoli. I wouldn't say I'm discriminated by their upturned noses.

It's experts in the field who are saying that paedophilia is a sexual orientation. I gather it's a specific type of paedophile: men who are exclusively attracted to prepubescent children. Most sex offenders "burn out" fairly young, but these guys typically go on offending for the whole of their lives. They often have hundreds of victims.

It seems there are many paedophiles who don't offend. They see sex with children as a horror, just like the rest of us. The key thing is to support men cursed with this so that they don't offend. And it is a curse. Imagine waking up tomorrow with a strong sexual interest in little kids. People need to be told that confessing to this attraction will not lead to prison as long as they haven't done anything.

A friend worked in a rehabilitation unit for serious paedophile offenders for a few years. She found it immensely depressing. The scheme didn't make a scrap of difference. Once a man has started offending - which involves rationalizing his behaviour - he won't stop.

Having been very liberal she now says that once a man has committed one offence against a prepubescent child he should be locked up for life. Or on an island.

Regarding BDSM, if it's extreme you can be prosecuted, even go to prison. Does anyone else remember Operation Spanner? Bunch of men nailing each other's scrotums to the floor. It was a big deal at the time.

Being gay means that you chose to have a same sex partner. Unless you chose to keep your relationship secret much of your life is played out in public. You live with your partner, you holiday with your partner, you may even chose to have children with your partner, sex is just a small part of that. Until very recently gay people faced terrible discrimination, and they still do in many countries.

Being part of the BDSM community isn't the same at. There's absolutely no reason to ever be playing your sexual choices out in public. I'm not saying it should be kept as a secret either, but it's just not relevant to other people.

Vestal I don't think it's that this scenario is too unrealistic:

I find out you really enjoy being spanked and tied up by your partner. From that I deduce that you probably have some unresolved issues from your early years and reckon you probably aren't suited to a/b/c mentally draining type work. Therefore you don't get the next promotion.

That is discrimination isn't it?

I find out you really enjoy being spanked and tied up by your partner. From that I deduce that you probably have some unresolved issues from your early years and reckon you probably aren't suited to a/b/c mentally draining type work. Therefore you don't get the next promotion.That is discrimination isn't it?

Yes, but that would fall under laws (if any exist) that illegalize discrimination against people with psychological health issues.

You could also find out that I am in psychotherapy, something much more likely for an employer to find out, and conclude from this that I have unresolved issues, and therefore not promote me.

Or you could find out that I do cosplay on weekends, and conclude that I am immature and childish ...

You see, most people who do things that employers wouldn't like keep those things secret. And with things that don't come up at the company's Christmas party (like being homosexual would, if you're supposed to bring your spouse), that's pretty doable.

or you casually mention that your partner picks out your clothes and then everyone assume you're in an abusive relationship.

or you are overheard asking permission for something pzeopledon't understand.

people have lost jobs because it has come out that they are into BDSM

I find out you really enjoy being spanked and tied up by your partner. From that I deduce that you probably have some unresolved issues from your early years and reckon you probably aren't suited to a/b/c mentally draining type work. Therefore you don't get the next promotion.

How about your boss finds out you collect My Little Ponies, assumes you're infantile and immature and doesn't give you a promotion. Or you boss finds out you're a wine buff, assumes by that you have a drink problem and doesn't give you a promotion. That's not discrimination, that's a boss being a dick and an armchair psychiatrist.

MsWorthington Wine is very socially acceptable, much more than BDSM. Even MLP isn't really on the same level (it's just as weird as people who collect stamps IMO). They're not fair comparisons.
As Vestal pointed out, these things are already defined as discrimination. My point wasn't that they should become protected, just that it is possible to be discriminated against for these reasons.

Whilst I am sure there are some perfectly nice BDSMers out there, it doesn't magically cancel out the overall societal problems surrounding consent.

www.dailydot.com/irl/kink-bdsm-consent-problem/

I can imagine that the BDSM community by the very nature of the kinks and fetishes being explored can attract some very unsavoury characters as the link above indicates.

Prawn

Regarding BDSM, if it's extreme you can be prosecuted, even go to prison. Does anyone else remember Operation Spanner? Bunch of men nailing each other's scrotums to the floor. It was a big deal at the time.

I remember it - I've just looked up the case on BAILII, R v Brown, it was a case that went as far as the House of Lords(as was). It was a narrow decision - of the 5 Law Lords, 2 allowed the appeal and would have set aside the convictions. This was back in 1993 - make me wonder what the decision would be if the case were to be heard today.

This latest supposed addition to the alphabet soup sadly shows the rather mistaken arguments that the lesbian and gay rights lobby used. Hence we have ended up with the attempts to make false analogies with trans and gender identity issues, and now seemingly with BDSM and 'sexual orientation' issues.

Being lesbian or gay isn't just about sex, and what sexual acts you perform. Although that was used historically to persecute gay men and lesbians. But being publically a lesbian or gay couple isn't the same as being publically into particular sexual acts (although just as with a straight couple, what acts are possible is slightly constrained by biology).

And the reason why being lesbian is 'okay' shouldn't be the 'I just am, can't change, can't help it', 'it's an innate part of my identity' argument. The real reason why the patriarchy doesn't like lesbians is because it challenges heterosexuality and the way that the private sphere is also used to maintain mens power over women. Hence no surprise if it has been twisted to be 'just' about sex, which is/should be either irrelevant to the rest of your life, or a bit of a turn-on for straight blokes. Or just another kink.....................

Male homosexuality was never quite the same threat to the patriarchy, and ancient greeks managed to incorporate it quite well into their society.

And I'll admit a part of me suspects this is former lesbian and gay rights organisations who are desperate to keep going, so now that the legalities are (mostly) sorted (as regards marriage, employment, pensions etc etc), what are they campaigning for? So finding a new group which can be made to fit using their same style of arguments, means new donors and keeps them employed. Or a take-over bid, now that gay and lesbian interest is waning.......................

From my point of view, as a lesbian don't assume you know about what I do sexually, and frankly it is none of your business! If you are prejudiced against a lesbian couple, it is frankly just sexism, because if I was the same person but holding the hand of a man, you wouldn't have the same issues. It's just SEXISM stupid! :-)

Bollocks, it's a hobby. My husband is into this shit but I won't have anything to do with it and he has to go out if he wants to dress up because I don't want it in the house.
It isn't a big deal between us I just ignore it but it is not a sexual orientation and if anyone at work decided to "come out" as BDSM I would have no hesitation in telling them to keep their preferences out of my face thank you very much.
I'm sure nobody at works wants to know what I get up to with my clothes off.

SomeDyke On the other hand, historically, and nowadays, it is more common for male homosexuality to be illegal/ more heavily punished and female homosexuality to be stigmatised and not punished as heavily. I don't think the conclusions you are drawing are correct.

I'm sure you're right, SomeDyke. Trans seems to have been taken up by all the gay/lesbian groups and charities because they need a new source of funding, and their leaders want to look cool and edgy. The co-chair of GLAAD is a TW and the organisation celebrates a TW who has made repeated threats against lesbians. Lots of lesbians online say they've stopped donating to such groups. They feel very betrayed and who can blame them?

This seems to me like another encroachment into LGB space. If I was a L I'd be furious. What spaces are left for young lesbians to come of age without having men impose their fetishes on them?

flora I utterly agree. I had to leave the thread as there was comparisons between paedophilia and homosexuality. The fact this is also know being touted as sexual orientation is awful.

"I don't think the conclusions you are drawing are correct."
I don't think I was trying to draw a conclusion, since I know where I'm starting from (the patriarchy exists!). Just that male homosexuality isn't necessarily as much a threat or a tool to be used against women as lesbianism is. Indeed, just the fact that male and female homosexuality have been treated differently tells you that there is more going on here than hetero vs homo! And I remember the girls kissing girls to attract the blokes thing from the 90s(?) (whereas AFAIK there wasn't a similar thing with blokes kissing blokes to attract the girls?). So pseudo-lesbianism becomes just another kink to please the (straight) men.

Frankly, I think many men still have a bigger problem with gay men and gay male sex than they do with straight BDSM (in terms of the whole thinking about what they get up to makes me feel ill defense for homophobia, or the bottom argument as my gay male friends used to call it!).

You can have a gay or lesbian marriage or couple, you can have a gay or lesbian family, you can't have a BDSM family. The analogy falls apart! It's not about sexual practices, but sex in terms of biology (of your partner)!

I get it. Definitely misunderstood your first post!

Normative human sexual behaviour involves being sexually aroused by touching of certain erroneous zones, talking about touching of those zones, thinking about it and doing it, and those zones include (but aren't limited to) genitals and secondary sex organs like nipples. Orgasm is desired and achieved through genital contact. The sex (male or female) of the person who is causing the arousal isn't relevant. Many people deviate from normative sexual behaviour, but they are deviations. BDSM is a deviation, if a deviation becomes the only way that sexual pleasure can be reached then it's a fetish.
BDSM isn't a sexuality. Sexuality relates to the sex of the people who cause you to be sexually aroused, not the type of activity that does it.

Does that mean we have to listen to politicians "coming out" as BDSM soon ?

[Sick face]

Thanks for all the interesting posts on this!