Cavan family annihilation by a "brilliant Dad"

[DoinItFine]

Is anyone else reading all about what an amazing guy Alan Hawe was with mounting disbelief and fury?

He stabbed his wife and three sons to death in a frenzied attack and then hung himself.

But poor him, he must have bern awful tortured. And he went to mass all the time.

Great Dad

You know when you read awful threads about abuse on MN and then out it comes "he's a great Dad", and you think "what does a man have to do to losr that label?"

Well apparently you can murder your 3 kids and still keep the Great Dad title.

The thing with abuse and violence is that for bystanders, there can be a fear of being held culpable - as in 'why didn't you stop it'. Or of having their judgement called into question if they didn't realise that someone was actually an abuser.

I suspect faced with something so utterly horrific, many might just default to the position that they knew nothing because the idea that they might have helped prevent it is too much to consider. ( I'm not suggesting that anyone could have stopped it btw, just that they might think so).

I posted on the craicnet thread, but did not specifically comment on the fact that they were being buried together. I suppose I just felt that it was inappropriate to comment on that for some reason related to it being not really my business how this grieving family are dealing with such a horrific event. But now I will say that the fact that Clodagh and her children are being buried together with their killer has bothered me so much that I lost sleep over it last night. It just seems to be the final insult, the final erasure. I really don't understand how her family can do it.

It's horrendous, isn't it Seneca? I'm a devout atheist and have no belief in life after death, but to think that Clodagh and her children had their bodies laid to rest next to the man who murdered them is intensely disturbing. I almost cried about it today.

Yes, Lotta, similar beliefs here. I think in our culture (using that in a broad sense as I am American), there is great symbolism attached to someone's last resting place. That is part of it for me anyway.

I think that the contents of notes that he left should be made public. I understand that the family may want privacy, but one of the biggest problems with domestic violence is that we (the societal "we") have treated domestic violence as a family matter for most of history. What happened is not only a crime against Clodagh and her children; it's a crime against society. Keeping the notes private just reinforces notions still prevalent among many that domestic violence is a private matter.

My fear Seneca is that the likelihood of those notes saying "I'm a horrible man who thought I had the right to murder my wife and children because of my massive ego and patriarchy" are vanishingly slim.

What is far more likely is that the note tries to portray him as a victim and gives people who try to blame Clodagh for her own murder more material.

I agree with you SenecaFalls.

On a seperate note -
Something that bothers me - we Irish won't speak ill of the dead.
Why not?
If they were sh**ts in life why beatify them in death.

Probably a mixture of superstition and the belief that you shouldn't talk behind someone's back / when they can't defend themselves.

I don't think that's just an Irish thing though - my family's the same.

This is why the archers story line pisses me off so much. They were right I presenting rob as this controlling bastard behind a very plausible and respectable front, but he would have been more likely to nearly kill helen than helen snap and almost kill him...

we Irish won't speak ill of the dead.

Eh? I can't relate to that at all (and yes, I am Irish).

The last shitty person I knew who died, his funeral (which people went to for his family's sake) had people saying things like he won't be much missed, the family's better off, 6 feet under is the best place for him, etc. No beatification there.

It might have been different in front of a total stranger, though, like if a journalist had come to the door. I can easily imagine lots of "ah he was a grand man" comments to nosy journalists, even if the speaker thought the man in question was a complete bastard and had said so to all the neighbours. It's a roundabout way of keeping outsiders at a distance.

I do wonder if there's an element of that going on in the Cavan reporting.

I can't say I think much of Clodagh's mother's comments or burial arrangement decisions, but there's something to be said for not judging someone who's just been through a horrific mass murder bereavement. People aren't necessarily at their most rational when they experience something like that. Our criticism is better directed at the coverage of this massacre. As usual.

I am appalled they'll be buried together. Disgusted even....can't get my head round whAt her family are thinking

I know, I know it's wrong to judge- and I hope I'm not judging as such - but trying to get my head around it - like the sisters posts (allegedly) rip Alan.

It's like they believe they were all killed in an accident or something, not murdered- in a most violent/painful fashion.

As a survivor of long term abuse, this stinks of it. Clodagh kept herself to herself ... Yes no doubt she had to or he would blow. Her family say how great he is ... Classic getting them onside. He seems to hAve the ownership mindset which in very very extreme cases leads to the abuser killing those around him.
Throughout my journey through the legal system, one of the first questions barristers would ask (and the police before that) was will he charm me? Often they do present as amazing men ... And will do anything to protect that image.

I keep thinking about QEI. When faced with [Catholic priest] assholes who wanted to kill her, whose belief system reckoned that they wouldn't go to hell for murder (the main inhibitor of the era). So, she reckoned, she had to impose a pre-death punishment that was going to weed out at least a few of the candidates, on grounds of squeamishness.

In short, we should bring back hung, drawn and quartered for these types of crimes.

Or, at least, not call them great dad's and husbands in tabloid press.

TL:DR - Any "news" source who claims these perps are anything but cold-blooded murders are, IMHO, complicit in future murders

The shock is that he appeared to be a great dad, husband, provider, law abiding upstanding member of the community.... That is why there are so many headlines and articles trying to make sense of it. The neighbours, colleagues, friends and family members can only describe the man they knew him to be through their interactions with him so of course their descriptions of him will be positive as that is how they viewed him before he murdered his family.

Nobody would have been shocked if he had a history of violence or string of convictions and someone like that wouldn't incite such bafflement and fear. We can avoid getting into relationships with men we KNOW to be violent and dangerous but when someone who appears so normal, genial, friendly, upstanding.....Someone who you'd never imagine as capable of doing such a thing, well that makes people realise that there is a lot more to others than the surface and you never know what may be bubbling underneath. It makes you realise that it could happen to you.

Then it raises questions. Was he violent within the home before? Were there signs that people close to the family could have noticed? Or ignored because he was so 'upstanding'. Was he a psychopath or was he really the nice man he presented who lost his sanity in a psychotic break?

These questions are important to identify so that we can protect families from domestic abusers and recognise and provide intervention for behavioural and mental health issues.

How the media presents parents who murder their children and spouses is important. It needs to be done in a way that doesn't glorify, justify or romanticise the killer because that can encourage copycats. It needs to be judged harshly. But we also have to question how someone who appeared so normal could have done something so evil. That focus is needed so that people understand that 'nice' people can be dangerous abusers too.

Just to add, I think it shows how much control he had in his presentation and manipulation that her own family allowed their daughter and grandchildren to be buried with the man who slaughtered them. They also said nice things about them. That is so disturbing. Assuming (and I think it's most likely) that Clodagh had been silently suffering abuse for years, that is the mentality she's coming up against from her own family, friends and people who should be her support. She wouldn't have been believed had she tried to escape him.

That's why I think it's important to emphasise to the public that this was someone who presented so well, normal and nice. That people like that can be evil bastards too and we should be watchful of family members or friends that seem to be trapped.

Well I'm not going to judge her family/mother for what they say right now, or for the burial arrangements. I'm truly astonished they can function at all or even form a sentence. Shock doesn't even begin to cover it.

The Linnea Dunne article:

"......patriarchal worldview that refuses to label domestic violence for what it is; that insists on publishing praise for a man who has just brutally murdered his wife and three children; that almost entirely omits the one woman from the story."

An ex-abuser of mine, upon my small rant about some "othering" I had to suffer (some aspect I don't want to share, sorry guys) said: "well, people just don't feel comfortable..."

But he didn't finish the sentence. In his tiny non-brain, there was no more to the sentence.

The rest of the sentence should have been "...and that sucks and it's wrong."

Bonus points for an additional sentence: "And here's what were going to do..."

That's what these articles do. They do the bare minimum of reporting: stop at the gore, glorify the status quo (women and chdren are property to be disposed of as a.n.man sees fit), and then Do Not Finish The Sentence. They do not then go on to say "feck, if people can really think somebody who did this was upstanding, what does that say about society?!?"

But they should. Fuck alleged impartiality. They can and choose to take sides on "benefit cheats", racism, commies, etc. if they can't turn their bully pulpit to killers of more than 50% of the population, well, I just don't know what to say.

Clodagh looked like my Aunty Meg I can understand the shock if everyone thought he was a good guy, I don't think they are excusing it. I think some men feel intense pressure that if they can't provide a good future for their family, everyone is better off dead. I bet this had something to do with it even though they were both employed in moderately good jobs.

I keep thinking about QEI. When faced with [Catholic priest] assholes who wanted to kill her, whose belief system reckoned that they wouldn't go to hell for murder (the main inhibitor of the era). So, she reckoned, she had to impose a pre-death punishment that was going to weed out at least a few of the candidates, on grounds of squeamishness.

Erm, possibly a not entirely appropriate way to describe the policies of someone who had innocent people tortured to death because they tried to assert a right to freedom of religion (she killed plenty of lay RCs simply for not acknowledging and participating in the state church too). Also, the death penalty doesn't really act as a deterrent. Societies that have it don't have higher rates of violent crime, and even the likes of the US utilise some pretty brutal methods. And you were much more likely to be murdered or subject to a violent crime in medieval Europe than you are now. I don't think hanging, drawing and quartering is going to be particularly of assistance to us here, especially not as so many of these mass murderers also kill themselves while they're at it.

I think some men feel intense pressure that if they can't provide a good future for their family, everyone is better off dead.

And what is wrong with men that this monstrous idea is so common that murdering your entire family is a recognised phenomenon?

You need to have an extraordinary level of vanity and self obsession to imagine it is preferable to stab 4 people to death than have them grow up middle class and comfortable in Cavan.

Agree with PP that questions need to be asked about why the (very likely) abuse by this man was unnoticed; and (relating to this) issues like the availability of services in the area for women and DC being abused.

It is really disturbing that her family are arranging for clodagh and the DC to be buried with their murderer. Terrible.

Seriously OP??? I am really struggling to retain my sympathy for her mother. Who are you to judge someone going through such a shockingly traumatic experience!

We don't know if the father wasn't suffering from some untreated mental illness. It's absolutely dreadful what happened but if it turned out he acted under a cloud of mental illness then I don't think he should be described as 'evil'. There's a reason people suffering with mental illness who murder people are found not guilty by reason of insanity. There was a case I recall in Ireland where a mother drowned her two small children. She'd been suffering with mental health problems and tried unsuccessfully to get help. The tone of the media coverage was understanding - not condemning her as evil
www.irishtimes.com/news/mother-and-daughters-die-in-wexford-drowning-1.432831

I won't be rushing to judgment without knowing the full facts.

Yes, seriously.

Who are you to judge someone going through such a shockingly traumatic experience!

Just a person who thinks it is weird and distasteful to be so concerned with protecting the reputation of the man who just butchered your daughter.

There's a reason people suffering with mental illness who murder people are found not guilty by reason of insanity.

There's a reason we don't automatically presume that every muderer is insane.