Men who don't/won't do housework - is anyone to blame?

[Thurlow]

I'm hoping I can explain this clearly!

We all know there are threads beyond count about men who don't pull their weight on the housework front, or who expect their wife/partner to do it all for them, almost regardless of whether or not the woman is working or a SAHP.

Sometimes on these threads posters say "you shouldn't let him get away with it" and similar comments which often gets called out as victim blaming which, really, it is in that specific situation. But it did get me thinking.

Surely there has to be a reason why so many men don't feel as if housework and household admin and even childcare is their responsibility and that it is still absolutely fine, in 2015 Britain, to expect the woman in the house to do it all. Is someone at heart to blame for it? (Apologies for the use of the word 'blame' as I suspect this is a lot stronger than I mean, but I can't think of quite the right word).

Is it the parents who raised the boy in the 1970s, 1980s, even 1990s who is responsible because they somehow taught him, deliberately or subconsciously, that women do all the work?

Is it, very occasionally, a woman's fault for not putting their foot down early enough in a relationship? But then surely there has to be a reason why they feel they can't do that - is it their parents who are responsible for raising them to feel they can't put their foot down? Is it back to the parents who maybe taught (again, deliberately or subconsciously) a girl she had to do everything, or taught a boy that he could ride roughshod over a woman's complaints and continue to insist she did everything?

Or is it just such an ingrained societal response that teaches girls as they grow up to do housework and not be confrontational, and boys that they don't need to do as much?

I don't quite like the last thought - so many men now do do their equal share of housework, cooking and parenting that simply saying "because society" or "because patriarchy" seems far too simplistic.

I hope I've managed to phrase that well. I definitely don't want to suggest in anyway that it is simple the woman's fault and she ought to put her foot down. But it makes me curious (and frustrates me a lot) that there still seems to be this ingrained inequality that both many men continue with, and many women feel they have to come to somewhere like MN and ask if they are U to expect their OH to do more around the house.

Same here shining! How awesome would it be to have a lovely housewife at home taking care of all the cooking and cleaning and annoying child stuff, while i went to work and swooshed about on my spinney chair all day. I would of course then come home and insist on a lie in at the weekend as I had been working so hard (it must be hard as I get money for it).

I did once try and pusuade dh to become a stay at home dad (I earn more than him). Funnily enough he was not keen. :o

On the subject of women being responsible I agree that they are not responsible on an individual level, but as I believe it is hard, ingrained cultural expectations that create these roles we are all responsible on a wider level. There is no point in us all sitting around saying that it isn't our fault and someone else should do something as we are part of the society that places men and women in these boxes. Women have to be aware of their role and be prepared to walk away if their dp won't play nice. Men have to be prepared to stand up and be the man in their friendship group who earns less and gets home early to put the kids to bed.

This is hard and I can absolutely see why people are not prepared to do it. Who wants to tell people they left their husband because he wouldn't put on a load of washing. There is still the idea that woman should stay in a relationship even if it doesn't make her happy. You are a failiure if you walk away. This is probably another thread, but I think the idea that you have to have a big reason to leave a relationship, that just not getting what you need from it isn't enough, is something that leaves women feeling trapped in miserable marriages and feeling unable to walk away from realtionships where the man doesn't pull his weight.

I gave up doing anything for my OH around 8 months ago, after a huge argument about his laziness in the house. I do my own laundry, my own food shopping and I only cook for my self, where as he only does the laundry when he has run out of socks, he once actually bought a pack of 7 socks as he was too lazy . He will even go to the café across the road for a sandwich!!!! rather than buy what is need to make one. We both work full time, he does Mon-Fri where as I work weekends as I am in retail. Since giving up doing stuff for him I find I am more relaxed as I don't need to worry what time he will be in to have dinner ready, or if he needs a clean uniform for work. Most of my friends think IABU, with the usual comments like "But he has just finished a 10 shift!" "He works hard to put food on the table!" and my point is he doesn't put any food on the table as I buy it and cook it, I also work 10-12 shifts so IMO it works both ways.

Most of my friends think IABU
that's very disappointing isn't it :(

perhaps the real underlying reason for the lack of empathy is that they are reluctant to face up to how unfair their own domestic set ups are....?

DH met up with a group of his friends the other night, one whom is a good friend whose wife has just had twins. It was purely social, none of them work together.

Me - Oh, how is X (the friend)?
DH - Er, good yeah.
Me - How is Mrs X going?
DH - OK, I think...
Me - DId they have girls, boys or one of each?
DH - Er, don't know.
Me - Well, what are their names?
DH - I didn't ask that. We were talking business.

Yet he could tell me the exact model of the Ferrari this guy had just bought!

You see, this is the difference in mentality because I can't imagine meeting up with 4 friends, one of whom had just had twins, yet not bother to ask anything about it!

One other friend of his rarely meets up with them anymore since he inadvertently became a SAHD because he can no longer hold his own within the testosterone-driven, business-bragging conversations that dominate any of their get-togethers.

Sadly, it's still seems harder for men to be SAHDs than women to have careers. Things will never be equal until men stop ferling out of place within their own male peer groups.

Things will never be equal until men stop feeling out of place within their own male peer groups
or until women refuse to form partnerships with men who wont divide up the domestic work fairly, and who up and leave men who wont pull thier weight after children arrive

waiting for the group who hold power and privilege to give some ground probably isnt the best way forwards, some carrot and stick needs to be applied

Yep, if they won't do what's plain fair, we need to be prepared to walk away. It's shit, but I decided I wouldn't be with someone who wasn't prepared to adjust their behaviour in the interest of equality. We are not asking for unicorns and rainbows, just that they do half.

And while it might be true that it's counter intuitive for men to willingly sign up to do doing their fair share, it's also, in many ways, counter intuitive for women to subscribe to feminism. The patriarchy punishes us for being democrats and we do go out on what is often a lonely and infuriating limb. I couldn't not be a feminist, but it's hard work.

And thats the thing isn't it shining. They have no incentive to go through the discomfort of being different if women don't push them. If we don't stop taking the crap and accepting it as our due why should they change. We need to stop feeling like any relationship is better than none and set some basic standards. If we all just expected 50/50 and walked away from anyone who didn't give us that than they would do it. It would become normal and men who didn't would be seen as the odd ones.

The problem then is that it is uncomfortable for us to do that, because we are left being the difficult ones, the women who expect too much from our poor put upon husbands. We have to break our own conditioning before we can expect men to break theirs.

I blame my PIL specifically my MIL but my FIL very openly admits that it is both of their faults.

My MIL was a SAHM for 8 years and then only ever worked voluntary or PT hours after that. My DH was never asked or expected to do anything around the house. He was waited on hand and foot by my MIL - she even cooked him special meals as he would not eat what the rest of the family ate.

I've just gone back to work full time and insisted that we get a cleaner.....I have had endless earache about it. And then I found out that my MIL also employed a cleaner even though she didn't work so I now few much better about the situ.

Obvs I'm not blaming my PIL for all of the housework issues - I really should have put my foot down a bit more in the early days but I was keen to make a good impression!!

We have to break our own conditioning
or at least impress upon our daughters the need to look after number one, earn your own money and be very wary of co habiting.
A relationship is one thing but actually setting up home with someone can leave you very vulnerable to the pressure to conform and do the wifework

What annoys me the most is the way it's always painted that the woman wants a perfect home but the man is happy with abut of mess, when actually what is happening is there is certain non-negotiable housework that must be done to keep the place safe and comfortable - especially when there are children - and these are all being done by one person.

it's always painted that the woman wants a perfect home but the man is happy with abut of mess
and the person who doesn't pull their weight never acknowledges how much they benefit from the work done by the tidy person.
It's easier cheaper and more efficient to live in an organised, tidy home

Happyon - it's so much easier to walk away from a relationship for whatever reason (including him being a lazy arse) before children, though, isn't it? And I think we are all in agreement that it's when children come along that differences in household contributions are particularly highlighted.

I found the thread over the weekend on "what would not happen in your house if you / OH weren't there to do it" fascinating reading as a companion piece to this thread, BTW

I don't think the outcome will be for most men to do 50/50.

The solution is for a return to a century ago when most lower middle class households paid for household help and the expectations of household conditions were lower.

Yes, much easier, though in my household, things got really bad after first DC, mainly because I wasn't prepared to set a bad example for him. I did leave when he was small.

But of course, these things are often very nuanced and depend on the people involved as much as on hard rules. I had to change some of my behaviour too, but while I was doing that I tied myself in knots; I wanted to compromise, but didn't want to be a martyr. We had counselling which really helped too.

I don't think so, Lightbulb. Not only does that raise all sorts of ethical problems about domestic employment, it also maintains stereotypes about women being responsible for domestic drudgery (unless men flood into the profession). Also, paying for help isn't a panacea. In my experience, someone (usually the woman) has to be responsible for locating and hiring staff, paying them each week, negotiating their hours and making sure they have all they need in terms of equipment. It just becomes another job and doesn't deal with the mental household labour (birthdays, school costumes, medical appointments etc ...)

As I have said in another thread the split is uneven in our house in the other direction (I do less than the husband).

Thinking about our background-
My husband was raised by a single mother who didn't give a fuck about housework. He had to look after himself from a very young age and if he wanted a clean environment he had to do it himself.
I was more traditional, up until splitting at when I was 15 my mum and dad had typical gender roles... but the house I grew up in was like a lost and found of random objects and completely disorganised. Much like my adult home money was spent on recreation rather than carpets and furniture. My room was an absolute shit tip and my parents washed their hands of it when I was about 11. Although my mum did all the domestic work she wasn't houseproud, I was never raised to believe that things should be done in a certain way.

jeepers and shining have articulated what I had been thinking but couldn't quite get clear in my mind.

There is no point in us all sitting around saying that it isn't our fault and someone else should do something as we are part of the society that places men and women in these boxes. Women have to be aware of their role and be prepared to walk away if their dp won't play nice. Exactly this. Which is where the "because patriarchy"-type explanations are bugging me - they seem to be saying, look, it's been that way for ages, it takes a strong man to do something against it (not that I agree too much with that suggestion), rather than looking for a solution.

waiting for the group who hold power and privilege to give some ground probably isnt the best way forwards, some carrot and stick needs to be applied

I appreciate why people complain this just means its another battle for women to fight. But isn't it worth it? Should we all just sit around muttering that it's unfair and get further and further demeaned and upset by it, or should it be considered something that is definitely worth making a stand against?

Time and time again you see comments on threads along the lines of "I bet he's not useless at work, I bet her can find his own crap at work." And I'm sure that is true - some men pull these stunts at home because they know they can get away with it, when they also know they can't get away with it at work.

It's considered unacceptable for a man who bully, threaten and abuse his work colleagues, and it is unacceptable for a man for bully, threaten and abuse his partner. Why should sitting back and insisting their partner work themselves to the bone while the man does no housework be considered any different?

Thurlow you seem to be implying that all women do is complain, which clearly isn't the case. All the improvements that have come about in women's situation have been entirely due to the actions of women.

should it be considered something that is definitely worth making a stand against?
yes I think it is definitely worth taking a stand, but one problem is that often it is difficult to do anything because you are over a barrel :(
this:
it's when children come along that differences in household contributions are particularly highlighted.
is very true
men, whether by 'instinct' or conscious deliberation will wait until they can get away with it, the person with power exploits the one without power.

Perhaps the best we can do is expose the processes which lead to women doing most of the donkey work and warn those who are not yet trapped not to fall for it, not to blithely walk into situations where you can be compromised

Foster cynicism in your daughters

This has reminded me of when I got pregnant with dd and dp just sort of retreated from anything baby related and expected me to deal with it. I don't think it was a conscious decision to be an arse, it was that this was how he saw relationships working around him when women got pregnant. He works in an office mainly staffed by women and when they get pregnant they take on the baby stuff and their husbands don't really get involved. He just slipped into the role he thought was expected of him in a new and unknown situation.

I took him for dinner and told him very clearly that if he wasn't going to play an equal part in raising this child than this relationship was not going to work for me. That was it, no discussion or compromise, I would leave. He knows me well enough to know I meant it and from that moment on has taken an equal part in childcare, in fact for a while he has done more childcare than me as I earn more so work longer hours than him.

I was brought up to be independent and feel confident in my ability to deal with things myself and take care of myself. I love dh, but I can live without him. I love being in a relationship with someone, but I know I would be fine if I wasn't. I think what stops women from making a stand is that they are so often told that they have to be in a relationship to survive. That they are not good enough on their own. I'm not going to bring dd up telling her to be wary of relationships, but I will bring her up be believe it is more important to be happy on her own than miserable with someone else. That being on your own is fine and that she can deal with whatever life throws at her without a man looking after her.

My DH is really good, although I do do most of the housework that is more down to him not being well (he has MS) so by the time he does get in from work he really is too tired/unwell to do much.

He says that he was always determined to do his fair share because he doesn't want to be anything like his dad.

Ex would never was the toilets or bathrooms. That was left to me. Though he had standards about how clean they should be.

He's a great dad though, apparently, despite abandoning his first three children. He 'helped' me with the nappy change occasionally and made dinner (whilst listening to his music or radio 5 live). He also washed up. He knew where the towels where kept. This is the mark of a great man.

"so many men now do do their equal share of housework, cooking and parenting"

• do you have statistics for this?

I don't know any men who do. I know many who think they do but I don't know a single man who works as hard as his female partner.

I agree that we all make up society, we are all a part of its web of implicit rules and pressures, and we all have to change if change is to happen. I get that. And I am single because I couldn't stand a lazy man - I'm one of the ones who put my money where my mouth was. My children have separated parents because I couldn't just thole it and wash up AGAIN. That's the long and the short of it, and I'm glad so many of you think that's a good thing.

But. My ex is no better. I failed, not in the sense that I feel somehow forced to live with a man who exploits my labour, because I don't. But in the sense that nothing I tried to do coudl change him. And even as separated co-parents, he is still living off an unjust division of labour, to his advantage. I literally have completely run out of ideas of how to explain to him how incredibly unfair and self centred he was, and is.

Thurlow. I think you massively underestimate the scale of the problem in two senses: 1, its prevalence and 2. its intractability

Isn't a lot of the problem that it is work to get someone to do their fair share? If your partner isn't pulling your weight you either make up the slack or teach/cajole/threaten/force them to. All of those things are work, and sometimes more, or more unpleasant work than just getting on with it yourself.

I can't really blame women who are trying to do difficult jobs in and out of the home for not doing more. I've worked in plenty of places where 95% of all the annoyances like printer issues etc were dealt with by a couple of people, and no one else bothered to learn. Confronting this is often more work for little return.