Men who don't/won't do housework - is anyone to blame?

[Thurlow]

I'm hoping I can explain this clearly!

We all know there are threads beyond count about men who don't pull their weight on the housework front, or who expect their wife/partner to do it all for them, almost regardless of whether or not the woman is working or a SAHP.

Sometimes on these threads posters say "you shouldn't let him get away with it" and similar comments which often gets called out as victim blaming which, really, it is in that specific situation. But it did get me thinking.

Surely there has to be a reason why so many men don't feel as if housework and household admin and even childcare is their responsibility and that it is still absolutely fine, in 2015 Britain, to expect the woman in the house to do it all. Is someone at heart to blame for it? (Apologies for the use of the word 'blame' as I suspect this is a lot stronger than I mean, but I can't think of quite the right word).

Is it the parents who raised the boy in the 1970s, 1980s, even 1990s who is responsible because they somehow taught him, deliberately or subconsciously, that women do all the work?

Is it, very occasionally, a woman's fault for not putting their foot down early enough in a relationship? But then surely there has to be a reason why they feel they can't do that - is it their parents who are responsible for raising them to feel they can't put their foot down? Is it back to the parents who maybe taught (again, deliberately or subconsciously) a girl she had to do everything, or taught a boy that he could ride roughshod over a woman's complaints and continue to insist she did everything?

Or is it just such an ingrained societal response that teaches girls as they grow up to do housework and not be confrontational, and boys that they don't need to do as much?

I don't quite like the last thought - so many men now do do their equal share of housework, cooking and parenting that simply saying "because society" or "because patriarchy" seems far too simplistic.

I hope I've managed to phrase that well. I definitely don't want to suggest in anyway that it is simple the woman's fault and she ought to put her foot down. But it makes me curious (and frustrates me a lot) that there still seems to be this ingrained inequality that both many men continue with, and many women feel they have to come to somewhere like MN and ask if they are U to expect their OH to do more around the house.

Dervel, I think you're right about the opportunity cost of start again vs cross fingers and hope. And it's in human nature to be optimistic, and also to keep backing the horse you originally put your money on.
Men might want children just as much as women, in the end, but biology means that women have to show their hand first so we never get to find out.

The nagging thing is a biggie. I wish that (very gendered) word didn't exist.
Man: Doesn't do it. Doesn't do it. Doesn't do it.
Woman: Asks. Asks again. Now she has a choice- she can

• ask again, at which point she has become "a nag"
• take action eg dump all the washing up on his side of the bed, at which point she has become an "hormonal crazy bitch"
• do nothing and drown in squalor, at which point she has become what her mother and MIL would call "a slattern"
• just do the work herself which is faster and less emotionally draining, at least in the short term.

Oh yes, "slattern" - remember that word v well from my mother! Along with things like eating in the street being "common"

Dervel, perhaps women have to be more driven and more engaged to want children. It is a much bigger biological commitment, a greater risk to health and a much bigger change in lifestyle for the 9 months. So maybe there is some sort of basic, evolved drive within them, in terms of either full commitment or no commitment, and what you are seeing is the expression of that commitment. You can't be half-hearted about being pregnant.

You absolutely can be half hearted about being pregnant. What difference is it going to make?

Just catching up with the thread. Really interested in what someone (sorry am can't remember who said it) said regarding women and men underestimating the amount of housework they do.

I think I'll try and keep track of housework tasks in my house. See who comes out on top.

Yes, men overestimate what they do and women underestimate.

The most time consuming household tasks IMO are cleaning (which can of course be "outsourced" if you're lucky), meal planning, shopping, cooking. Laundry.

Admin, health and education things relating to DC - including social stuff! Eg organising a lift share for a party - is disproportionately demanding IMO and almost never done by men.

Admin, health and education things relating to DC - including social stuff! Eg organising a lift share for a party - is disproportionately demanding IMO and almost never done by men

To be fair to dh - the admin bit and educating the girl is very heavily his domain - it's awful, I watch him doing it in awe. But I do the health stuff and roughly 75% of party stuff.

I think blue chameleon has made a really important point - if men don't spent a whole day with their baby, they don't master doing other things at the same time as childcare, or the other way round - cleaning, cooking etc at the same time as childcare. Growing up I pretty much got a running commentary on multi-tasking - boil the keetle for the rice, while that's boiling get all the veg out, put the rice on, now do this then that then the other. DP being self-taught in housework never did more than one thing at a time and severe dyslexia means he struggles with sequencing, but having put the effort in, he's learned much more than some chaps.
Also DP working from home a lot has helped - aside from no commute so he's there for bedtime, it meant that when I got 'nothing' done other than keep a child alive all day, he could understand that I hadn't been idle at all.

I think we need another couple generations at least before housework becomes more equal - in my parents' generation it was still unusual for men to change many nappies, whereas now it's generally expected men do half when they are around and the only guy I know who didn't was laughed at by his mates (which is the stage we need to get to re housework - fear of ridicule from other men if they dont do it proactively).

I feel like what Thurlow is asking is something like: "given that men all know about housework now, and all accept that women have lives outwith the house, and therefore accept that they need to do doing housework too; given that, why aren't they doing it? It must be the women's fault."

1. I fundamentally disagree with the premises of the question. I do not think that those things are givens at all. I have read a million threads on here, and have my own experience, to show that men do not know about housework; do not accept that women have equal rights to themselves to do other things; and do not accept that they have the same responsibility for housework as the woman they live with. they just don't. They say they do - but they just don't. Some of them don't even know they don't. But they don't.

1. It is, however, definitely the case that not all women have powerfully internalised the idea that men and women should be equal for housework, either. It would be very odd if they had. I personally have spent much of my life at a difficult crossroads where I instinctively accept that it falls to me initially, do it, and then resent that I have done it all and wonder what I can do about it in future, without coming up with any answers. This stunted state is in itself one stage of evolution on from doing it without questioning it, ever. this is what social conditioning is.

Just thinking about our relationship, it's kind of traditional in some ways but not in others.
I do almost all the cleaning and cooking because I've been a SAHM for 12 years. DH does all the washing up, to the point I cook, leave the kitchen in a state and he cleans it.
I vacuum because I'm in the house by myself during the day.
He sorts out all the dental appointments, taking kids to clubs at the weekend, admin such as passports, house and car insurances and other things like that because I hate it. He doesn't like doing them either, but them has to be done

I also disagree with the premise of the question, but for another reason. How tidy a house should or shouldn't be is an entirely subjective proposition.

There are some caveats to that though. It is not subjective to say that a house needs to be toddler safe. Children need to be safe, well fed and clean.

I' a teacher and I sometimes force boys to give out books, or collect pencils it would be much easier to just let the girls do it and there is always a girl willing to do it.

I'm supply as well so when I'm with a new class I write my name on the board and there are always questions about me being 'Ms'. I a sk them whether being married is relevant to how well I teach and whether they would ask a male teacher if he were married.

"How tidy a house should or shouldn't be is an entirely subjective proposition."

this is a massive red herring (usually)

woman "I am drowning in mess and clutter and work! Please help!"
man "How tidy a house should or shouldn't be is an entirely subjective proposition."

It's a dick move.

Housework is not all about tidying and cleaning.

The big issue is the day to day essential stuff. Things that are absolutely necessary. It's not about whether the skirting boards are dusted. It's about whether there is bread for packed lunches, clean school clothes and looked after pets. It's about whether there is loo roll. It's about whether the bills are paid and the car insurance renewed. It's about whether letters to school are returned.

It's about whether there is bread for packed lunches, clean school clothes and looked after pets. It's about whether there is loo roll. It's about whether the bills are paid and the car insurance renewed. It's about whether letters to school are returned

bertrand I'm never showing dh this thread. He does virtually all of that

Hmm, yesterday (with about 12 teenagers in the house, don't ask) DH and I met each other on the way back from two different shops at 8 a.m., having simultaneously realised that we didn't have either bread or loo roll...

This is the thread I have been waiting for! I think about this quite a lot. There's no outward sign of sexism from my dh however he just doesn't do a lot of the mundane household chores, take responsibility for childcare etc. It seems to me that he just doesn't see any of it as his job even though he knows that I expect him to do his share. He has to be reminded otherwise he just won't bother. He then complains about how I phrase my requests. I feel I shouldn't have to constantly ask him to do house stuff.
We have 2 DDs and it's important to me that they don't just see daddy playing on his ipad and chilling out whilst mummy runs around cooking, washing up etc. I actually spend less quality time with the children even though I work part-time because of the lack of shared responsibility. He gets to watch films with them and do nice things whilst I can never relax as there's always too much to do. That makes me cross!
I agree with the maternity leave comment. Who in their right mind would happily take on 'extra' (low status) stuff to do when they can avoid it? Men seem to have the ability to ignore the inequality and just go about 'their' business. I would feel guilty if on a regular basis my dh was running around whilst I kicked back.
I also agree with Basil's comments about society's judgement's. Besides the state of the house I think there's the social stuff of remembering birthdays, sending cards, buying presents etc. My dh just wouldn't bother or possibly even remember! He wouldn't feel embarrassed about it. These additional admin tasks also fall under the woman's to do list. Or is that just us?

Maudlin I'm talking about general compatibility here, not to mention good communication and mutual respect. Obviously watching your partner descend into madness as everything gets on top of them is a 'dick move' as you put it.

All I am saying is these things need to be ironed out early on in relationships, and I don't think this is contentious to point out. What are the expectations re: individuals careers, division of labour on essential tasks etc.

Now obviously if this all gets sorted out, but then the man undergoes a complete personality change and starts treating his wife like a skivvy then he is without question the villan of the piece and 100% at fault.

All I am saying is that couples need to work out what's right and works for them. Several people have come on and posted how they share domestic stuff and wouldn't suffer a bloke who wasn't fully invested. Personally I think this is the way foward.

Generally though I have been chronically mystified how many women I've known have put up with terrible treatment from their partners, whereas by comparison far fewer men I'm friends with have put up with bad treatment from their wives/girlfriends.

Bad men I'm sure are to blame, but by dint of bieng unpleasant I doubt they care overly much what people think of them, and their seems to be an endless parade of women willing date and procreate with them, so is this realistically going to change?

I'm not trying to be bleak I'm just trying reframe this from the perspective that no woman deserves to be treated like this, and maybe try and get to a point where we examine why so many women appear to seem to think so little of themselves they put up with so much for so long.

In closing I realise I'm making a pigs ear of engaging in this thread so I'll go away and read the full thread again and try to Marshall my thoughts and eloquence better, apologies if I have frustrated anyone in any way.

Dervel - it's not always possible to iron these things out early on, because the problem often only arises after children arrive. Many women are a bit disgruntled about doing more housework in a couple, but it's manageable job and so they don't want to 'nag' about it. However, once children come along and the workload suddenly increases and gets harder to manage, then it becomes a problem. But the woman is often at home on maternity leave and feels that keeping the house clean is part of her 'contribution' (as if growing a human being in her body wasn't enough!). The crunch time comes when the question of going back to work arises. At that stage many women are utterly exhausted and can't imagine possibly having a job on top of everything else. They don't have the energy to 'nag' and force their husband to do his fair share. So either they go back to work and end up entirely strung out or they decide not to go back to work.

Do people really think that the dynamics of a relationship do not change either, during its lifetime .

What you may have agreed at one point may not be working at another.

"Generally though I have been chronically mystified how many women I've known have put up with terrible treatment from their partners, whereas by comparison far fewer men I'm friends with have put up with bad treatment from their wives/girlfriends." And why do you think that is? Clue: male entitlement

Do you really think it is the job of women to change when it is men's behaviour that is the problem, Dervel?

Didn't you know scallops - it's always up to women to change. Men's behaviour must never be criticised. Even when a man murders his family, he's still a great guy.

Plus, Sparrowhawk, at the end of Mat Leave there's often the situation that women are earning less than their partner, so it "doesn't seem worth it, as all my salary will be going on childcare". Obviously, as women start to earn the same (or more!) than men in general, this position will lessen (I can dream!), but historically this has been the case for the majority.

Dervel - neither DH or I would say that he had undergone a massive change in personality, but the changes that have happened in our relationship regarding housework have happened so stealthily - and unintentionally - that we are where we are without either of us realising it. This is predominantly related to having children, especially as my second lot of Mat Leave was actually Adoption Leave, so although there were other challenges I wasn't physically exhausted from birth and didn't have a newborn to juggle.

This troubles me too, on a practical and an intellectual level. DH came from a family of origin with 50s style gender roles and not a small amount of a controlling bullying, emotionally abusive father, a meek mouse for a mother and a scapegoat/golden child dynamic.
MIL has actually bragged to me that 'her boys never had to lift a finger' (she had only boys) and it was all I could do not to leap across the coffee table and throttle her. I understand that she too was a product of her upbringing as the only girl in a remote farming family.
DH and I row about one thing only - the division of labour in our home.
For my DH I do think a big part of it is laziness and procrastination. But I also see that it would be so peaceful to have someone else do the shit work and the thinking in your home life. For all the minutiae to be someone else's problem. I wonder if there was someone else around to lean on, if I (a rather lazy procrastinator too, by nature) would lean and lean and lean the way DH has learned to while I've been SAHM and now part time/self employed.
We have more work to do on this issue but, five years in and he does not realise how close I am to pulling the pin.

My DH prided himself on what a 'good guy' he was. If, three years ago, I'd ever suggested he had sexist views he'd have been horribly offended - he would have genuinely believed that he didn't. But how could he not have sexist ideas? He grew up in a family with a lazy domineering father and an apologetic martyrish mother. If directly asked he would have sworn black and blue that he believed women and men to be real, but in fact he saw housework and something he didn't really have to engage with in any serious way - something he'd do if really pushed, but would leave if he could get away with it. It wasn't until I threatened to divorce him that he woke up.

He now realises that he had subconsciously absorbed the bullshit from his parents and from society. MIL has this fairy story in her head about how 'mother nature' allows women to just keep going and going after babies are born without break or a rest. She had to tell herself that story or face the fact that FIL chose to work abroad for ten months while her first was a baby because he was a lazy entitled shithead. She had to make herself believe that it was all ok because she'd been divorced once already, was mortified about it and couldn't be divorced again. Having grown up the daughter of a single mother in the 50s she had a horror of single motherhood - she had been extremely well taught that she had to be in a relationship, no matter how bad, or face the consequences.

Luckily DH has given himself a very very firm kick up the arse and things have improved a massive amount.