Men who don't/won't do housework - is anyone to blame?

[Thurlow]

I'm hoping I can explain this clearly!

We all know there are threads beyond count about men who don't pull their weight on the housework front, or who expect their wife/partner to do it all for them, almost regardless of whether or not the woman is working or a SAHP.

Sometimes on these threads posters say "you shouldn't let him get away with it" and similar comments which often gets called out as victim blaming which, really, it is in that specific situation. But it did get me thinking.

Surely there has to be a reason why so many men don't feel as if housework and household admin and even childcare is their responsibility and that it is still absolutely fine, in 2015 Britain, to expect the woman in the house to do it all. Is someone at heart to blame for it? (Apologies for the use of the word 'blame' as I suspect this is a lot stronger than I mean, but I can't think of quite the right word).

Is it the parents who raised the boy in the 1970s, 1980s, even 1990s who is responsible because they somehow taught him, deliberately or subconsciously, that women do all the work?

Is it, very occasionally, a woman's fault for not putting their foot down early enough in a relationship? But then surely there has to be a reason why they feel they can't do that - is it their parents who are responsible for raising them to feel they can't put their foot down? Is it back to the parents who maybe taught (again, deliberately or subconsciously) a girl she had to do everything, or taught a boy that he could ride roughshod over a woman's complaints and continue to insist she did everything?

Or is it just such an ingrained societal response that teaches girls as they grow up to do housework and not be confrontational, and boys that they don't need to do as much?

I don't quite like the last thought - so many men now do do their equal share of housework, cooking and parenting that simply saying "because society" or "because patriarchy" seems far too simplistic.

I hope I've managed to phrase that well. I definitely don't want to suggest in anyway that it is simple the woman's fault and she ought to put her foot down. But it makes me curious (and frustrates me a lot) that there still seems to be this ingrained inequality that both many men continue with, and many women feel they have to come to somewhere like MN and ask if they are U to expect their OH to do more around the house.

I think mat leave sets the tone. Not just taking on 'the household' but in female centred mat/postnatal care there is the clear message that babies = mummies which the media embraces. It doesn't encourage men to get involved.

The media has a huge role to play. I recall an ad once for a shower spray a women was using whilst having a shower. Women, why waste precious time in the shower, whilst you could be cleaning too!' They'd never feature a man in the shower cleaning whilst showering!

I loved Shattered by Rebecca Asher, she asks the same question as this thread. She talks about mat leave, men often working flexibily on the quite (which was exactly what my DH has done to get my son to Beavers on time) which means women are the ones seen as part-timers/less committed etc and thus the man remains in his Very Important Full Time Job etc and not around to share the load. Obv lots of generalisations here & I haven't done her book justice.

It seems like a well researched book. www.amazon.co.uk/Shattered-Modern-Motherhood-Illusion-Equality/dp/0099548844

We are pretty equal, but I still do more 'wifework' than him but he is improving.

She talks about mat leave, men often working flexibily on the quite (which was exactly what my DH has done to get my son to Beavers on time) which means women are the ones seen as part-timers/less committed etc and thus the man remains in his Very Important Full Time Job etc and not around to share the load.

That's very important I think. I'm sure I read something once about how men tend to simply go and do things they need to do (pick up children/go to the dentist etc) and assume it will be ok with work, with the result that a lot of the time nobody notices they're doing it, whereas women ask and therefore people see that they are not working/working flexibly and they get penalised for it.

I get that we don't live in a bubble, and cultural expectations affect us more than we realise.

Am I the only one though who thinks it must be more than simply "social conditioning"?

I can accept I might be biased. DP and I both work f/t with a young DC and another on the way. We share childcare due to our shifts, so DP probably has DD on his own more than I do and has done this since I went back to work when DD was 8mo. He does all the meal planning, shopping and cooking for every day. We share the housework, though we each have areas we do more than the other does. So like some other posters, my personal experience does not match up with a lot of what other people say and, again personally, I struggle to imagine letting DP "slide" on what he does around the house, even on mat leave.

Where does this social conditioning come from?

That spray sounds bizzare. No way would I want to get cleaning chemicals on my naked self

I think breastfeeding is a big 'thing' that sets up of the inequality on maternity leave but this is probably not the right thread for it.

I meant quiet!

Yes. It made me think 'us' foolish women doing it by the book, whilst the men just work around it without telling anyone. Since reading the book I have noticed how the men I know do it too.

Think her suggestion was for men to be more open about their need for flex. But I doubt that seems like an attractive propositon with the well document inequailities experienced by women at work....

Also the multitasking issue. While the kettle is boiling, or I'm waiting for noodles to cook or whatever, I can pretty much clean the kitchen. While the kids are in the bath I can give all that a wipe down. My husband would never think to utilise these little pockets of time- he would literally stare at the wall for three minutes. So then we are making it look "easy" by accident. It's like the kitchen just cleaned itself cause wife was in the kitchen boiling the kettle, yet somehow the kitchen is clean. So it doesn't need done anymore, so the husband doesn't need to do anything.

I'm not convinced millions of men are simply leaving work without asking for permission, while millions of women are asking and playing by the rules.
However, the employers I've worked for have usually been very good at allowing women time off when children are sick, need picking up, appointments, etc., yet raise an eyebrow and are pretty reluctant when a father asks for the same. The employers are basically saying "why can't the mum do it?" even if they don't actually say that.

OK I feel I gotta defend the shower spray which is one of the greatest inventions of all time. Hate the ad campaign - not the spray!

You spritz the glass before turning off the water then rinse it with the shower head. It literally never gets grubby again!

Can I add that my husband uses it religiously too? Does that make it less sexist?

I completely agree with you Basil. It makes me really sad too.

I'm rubbish at multi tasking. And not brilliant at cleaning tbh, though I do try..

I think the problem of men not pulling their weight domestically is many sided.
Historical-women have always been considered in charge of the domestic drudgery.
Male entitlement-men are programmed from birth by the whole of society, apart from little pockets of resistant feminists, to think what they want and need is paramount. And nobody wants to clean the bog.
Maternity leave. Shared leave, genuinely shared leave, and genuine shared flexible working is going to be the only way to even the balance. And also a beleif that paid and unpaid childcare is the responsibility of both parents.
I read so many threads where women mention that they can't afford to go back to work because "their" salary wouldn't cover the childcare, rather than seeing the two incomes as a whole, and then deducting childcare as an extra inevitable bill post children.
And YY to "His Very Important Full Time Job.
I also see a lot of male entitlement around this issue where I work in the school holidays, when senior men think nothing of bringing their children to work and sticking them on an I pad or whatever, whereas women would just never, ever do this (if they did they would be heavily judged).
Lastly-women accept it. Some women. And this is the one I just don't get. Friends always comment that I tend to go out with men who are excellent cooks..well, duh! I like to be well fed! ( and I'm a good cook myself). And for years I haven't been interested in men who are domestically useless or selfish.
I just physically wouldn't want to shag them. Selfishness and lack of consideration are just not sexy.

I guess for a lot of women the problem is that they feel they must be in a couple no matter what ( fear of spinsterhood/single mum stigma), and then when they are in said relationship, mat leave and part time working traps them financially.
Someone who used to post of here a lot, and with whom I have not much else in common with politically, used to repeat the mantra "don't marry a sexist, and out earn your husband", which does seem like good advice for our daughters

I struggle to imagine letting DP "slide" on what he does around the house, even on mat leave.

Can you not see how, if you go from a situation where both partners work equally and then one is suddenly in the house all day, a number of factors might come into play that lead one or both partners to feel she ought to be doing more housework: she is in the house so has the time (hah!); it is her 'role' along with motherhood; he is providing the lion's share of the income (probably) and so she needs to take on extra domestic labour to contribute. All these are unconscious factors which may be at play. It's great when it doesn't happen of course, but it's easy to see how it does.

he has the right to have more free time than you and has a god-given right to have leisure time irrespective of what needs to be done in his home
I think this rests on a foundational belief/feeling that women are secondary and should serve the needs of men, his comfort and convenience should take priority

Furry, I actually agree that the SAHP should do more housework, as long as the DC allows it. Because there's a lot of housework that is quite quick and simple to do, so the parent at home, if they aren't stuck to a clingy or breastfeeding baby or caring for a poorly DC, can whack the washing in, wipe around the bathroom, change some bedsheets etc.

It's the evening and weekends when both parents are at home where there is an ability to "slide". And then when the SAHP goes back to work, if they want to.

Haven't read the full thread yet, but I had very smug camping trip this summer, when the ladies toilet/shower was always clean because women were willing/able to follow the instructions to mop the floor after a shower, whereas the men's (according to a very disgruntled dh) were constantly wet and muddy.

DH can and did mop by the way, and was entirely baffled by the state of the male block compared to the female.

What patriarchy has very successfully done, is ensured that the power and status that might otherwise attend the production of a human being, is taken from a woman and given to a man. A man is enhanced by becoming a father, a woman is diminished by becoming a mother. He gets paid more, seen as more of an adult, seen as a more committed person and worker; she gets seen as less marketable, less reliable, less committed. The power dynamic in their relationships changes dramatically as his socio-economic status has increased and her's has been smashed to pieces. The result at home? He gets to palm the shit-work off onto her, unless he is an unusually decent man

this! ^^
society as a whole needs new humans, women bear the cost/burden of this work, but for no real reward, we are fed the story that women have children because their maternal instincts compel them to do so.
Sometimes women are judged to be selfish for wanting children as if they children were exotic pets which women beget purely for their own amusement.

If women complain about falling behind in their careers and earning capacities they are told it's their own fault for wanting to have children.

What if women, en mass, decided that having children is clearly a bum deal and we're all going to just focus on career, earning capacity, having an enjoyable life, pursuing personal interests.
No more next generation

It's the evening and weekends when both parents are at home where there is an ability to "slide". And then when the SAHP goes back to work, if they want to.

Exactly. Maternity leave often establishes a pattern under which a woman does more of the housework, and you then actively need to push against that when you go back to work. It is I think particularly difficult to do that in relation to the 'new' work that comes with having children, because both partners are probably accustomed to her doing the bulk of that. My DH really is very good in most ways, but I realised today that DS1 is out of pull ups, and then I realised that ensuring we have a stock of nappies/pull ups in the correct size has always been my job. Why FFS? He is perfectly capable of buying pull ups, but isn't turned into it, because I've always done it- despite the fact that he gets DS1 ready for bed more often than I do at the moment.

Sorry- that should say 'isn't tuned into it'

I actually do blame a lot of women! My DH is brilliant, we share housework and cooking and although I work p/t when we are both at home we are equally responsible for childcare.
However I have noticed when my mum is here she gushes praise on him if he cooks even the simplest meal whereas when I cook it isn't mentioned. She looks after DD one day a week. DH and I both get home around the same time and he is often first to put the kettle on at which point my mum says "Poor DH having to make his own tea, he's been at work all day". The equivalent comment is not made if I make the brew.
I have noticed when visiting MIL that questions about DD are always addressed to me (What will she have for lunch? Is she still in nappies? Etc).DH is never asked these type of questions.
I was most shocked when with a group of women my age who have sons that they started discussing future girlfriends they all made comments like "nobody will ever look after him like I do". These are educated women with good careers, not 1940s housewives!
As long as mothers have these attitudes to their sons, they will grow up expecting women to do all the housework, cooking etc.

As long as mothers have these attitudes to their sons, they will grow up expecting women to do all the housework, cooking etc

I agree. I have friends who are very assertive and expect their husbands to be hands on and share childcare and housework, but look after their sons as if they were little gods but expect their daughters to help with chores.

I'm messy as hell, but this:
doesn't remember that kids need to see the dentist
just struck a chord.

Yesterday, when DD asked mildly, 'When do I next go to the optician?' it suddenly hit me that in over 40 combined child-years, DP has never, not once, not ever, booked his children any kind of medical appointment. He's come to some with me, or (once?) been on his own, but never booked one.

So that's 6 dentist appointments a year plus at least 6 opticians
plus every vaccination and asthma check
plus bloody brace fittings and going back every 4 weeks
plus every broken arm/leg/tooth
plus random spottinesses
plus, shall I mention, one of ours is autistic and had weekly therapy for yonks...

Sod the housework, it's the medical hanging-on-the-phone work that I have retrospective rage about.

Thurlow - could you please enhance this question a bit:

"Am I the only one though who thinks it must be more than simply "social conditioning"?"

I am wondering what you mean by this.

Do you not think that social conditioning is enough, or powerful enough? It is incredibly powerful. And changes in this area have started incredibly recently.

Are you suggesting that women, or some women, work to maintain the status quo? Surely some do, but of course we are all socially conditioned too.

Are you trying to say "they say they can't help it but they can't be that useless; aren't they all just a bit selfish?"? Well - maybe

What is it that lies behind your sense that there must be "more"?

Could it also be that more often than not, it is the woman who goes part time after having children. This affects the type of job they have and more often than not the autonomy they have in that job. So dh is in a job where he manages his own diary, frequently works from home, so when he needs to do the school run he doesn't need to seek permission. I on the other hand no longer do a mangerial job , I would need to speak to my manager each and every time. time.

I always assumed it was partly because when a couple is expecting a baby, the woman has 9 months of inescapable reminders that her old life is GONE - body changes, you know youll be doing breast feeding and night feeds and be likely doing the child care while on maternity, while men tend to think that "there'll be some adjustments at first but then life will essentially go back to normal".

A couple doesnt really make that much housework, so the man thinks that his old "50 percent of the housework" amount is more than enough, in fact he can do less because now his wife will have that maternity time on her hands! He sees "it doesnt matter that that takeaway box is left on the floor" because it never USED to matter, it wasnt a disaster at least, whereas the woman is on full "baby hormones alert" and sees the potential danger in the baby eating that old pizza from last night.

I alctually wonder whether the housework avoidance is an unconscious punishment for his old life in the house being taken away. I notice that the traditional man jobs of "bins, car, garden, DIY" are all things that involve him being on his own, usually out of the house completely, and plausibly fitting into the illusion of "this is me still living my old life".

It may astonish you to find that I'm not remotely interested in what you think, Grimarse.

Of course you aren't, Bas. That would involve you having to examine your own behaviour, which would never do

If a life partner's behaviour is upsetting you, you have to call it out, and they have to change. If they don't respect you enough to change, you are with the wrong person.