Men who don't/won't do housework - is anyone to blame?

[Thurlow]

I'm hoping I can explain this clearly!

We all know there are threads beyond count about men who don't pull their weight on the housework front, or who expect their wife/partner to do it all for them, almost regardless of whether or not the woman is working or a SAHP.

Sometimes on these threads posters say "you shouldn't let him get away with it" and similar comments which often gets called out as victim blaming which, really, it is in that specific situation. But it did get me thinking.

Surely there has to be a reason why so many men don't feel as if housework and household admin and even childcare is their responsibility and that it is still absolutely fine, in 2015 Britain, to expect the woman in the house to do it all. Is someone at heart to blame for it? (Apologies for the use of the word 'blame' as I suspect this is a lot stronger than I mean, but I can't think of quite the right word).

Is it the parents who raised the boy in the 1970s, 1980s, even 1990s who is responsible because they somehow taught him, deliberately or subconsciously, that women do all the work?

Is it, very occasionally, a woman's fault for not putting their foot down early enough in a relationship? But then surely there has to be a reason why they feel they can't do that - is it their parents who are responsible for raising them to feel they can't put their foot down? Is it back to the parents who maybe taught (again, deliberately or subconsciously) a girl she had to do everything, or taught a boy that he could ride roughshod over a woman's complaints and continue to insist she did everything?

Or is it just such an ingrained societal response that teaches girls as they grow up to do housework and not be confrontational, and boys that they don't need to do as much?

I don't quite like the last thought - so many men now do do their equal share of housework, cooking and parenting that simply saying "because society" or "because patriarchy" seems far too simplistic.

I hope I've managed to phrase that well. I definitely don't want to suggest in anyway that it is simple the woman's fault and she ought to put her foot down. But it makes me curious (and frustrates me a lot) that there still seems to be this ingrained inequality that both many men continue with, and many women feel they have to come to somewhere like MN and ask if they are U to expect their OH to do more around the house.

AskBasil makes some excellent points.

It is women who are judged if the house is untidy, the children are badly behaved etc.

Often by other women too. And we've had just the same amount of time as men to stop doing it.

I particularly like your point about ownership of cars but not houses Basil I'm going to use that next time one of my friends rolls out that nonsense about their DH not "seeing" mess.

powershowerforanhour Basil is right about research being clear that men. & women consistently underestimate how much housework men do. Most recent research shows that 'millennial' men actually do less housework & child rearing than their fathers did in the 70/80s. This difference is increased by a statistically significant amount if the woman earns more money than the man or works full time. Which pretty much proves the choice decision rather than copying patterns in their own parents relationships.

I particularly like your point about ownership of cars but not houses

If I'm honest I think this is more stereotype than truth. Through work I share commutes with lots of different people.
Most of the time cars vary from being a bit messy to very messy. If anything the blokes were more messy.

There was only one bloke whose car was immaculate and his house was also immaculate too (but he and is wife paid for cleaners, gardeners and someone to iron too).

My DP was spoilt by mother and three older sisters and suffers from "little Prince" syndrome. I had been a single parent for a few years after ex left so was able to do most things including car/diy. DP now does his own washing and ironing and some cooking but it's been a long slog!

My personal take on this is that my OH grew up as 1 of 10 siblings! Four girls and 6 boys and gender roles were more 'specific' then. Also growing up in a household of that size understandably things would have been more chaotic messy and we clearly have very different ideas as to what is tidy. Yes I would have expected that over the years I would have been able to knock it out of him (and he is better than he was) but I do have to nag keep on at him to do stuff sometimes.

I'm a total hardcore feminist from a non stereotyped family background. But I remember once visiting a boyfriend at uni and immediately rolling up my sleeves and tackling his kitchen. I then mused to myself that had any of his flatmates been female, or any other girlfriends have been present, I wouldn't have stepped in.

As it would have felt 'insulting' to her.

Bizarre.

Basil, can I see the study for the 'men washing their cars' analysis please?

But I remember once visiting a boyfriend at uni and immediately rolling up my sleeves and tackling his kitchen.

Interesting. Would it be reasonable to suggest that, as men are reared to believe it's the woman's job, women are also reared to believe it's their job? Or reared to believe they need to "look after" their man? Or is that blaming women? I think a lot of women think they have to look after their man in a lot of ways.

I didn't mention a study about cars Grimarse.

"or perhaps he finds domestic work so onerous (because womens work demeans him) that the amount he does feels like much more than it actually is?"

I definitely think that's something to do with it. My DS (17) whinges and whinges and whinges self-righteously about how much housework he's done every day - the laundry, the kitchen, the dishwasher etc., in order to make it clear how put upon he is.

Unlike their cars, where they do feel ownership. I am always astonished by women's claim that their DH "doesn't see dirt" in the kitchen, when he has an hysterical attack about even the idea of the children eating crisps in the car. Men do see dirt - in or on their cars. Because they feel ownership of it. They feel responsible for cleaning it up.

So, what is this 'hysterical attack' based on then? Because it sounds like a lazy stereotype/anecdata to me. And for a feminist to have to resort to lazy sexist stereotypes, e.g. about men and cars, is ironic.

With regards parental responsibility for men's view on housework, I think there is equal responsibility for their fathers doing fuck all around the house. It isn't just their mothers doing everything. Why are they doing everything? Because their father isn't doing anything. I'm sure some mothers have taken on that role with great gusto, ownership and control, however, its a lot easier to sit back and say "she won't let me do anything" than it is to get involved.

I notice a lot of mums saying "I have taught my son's how to load the washing machine".

No mention of the actual father taking pains to pass that skill on. Could that be a subliminal factor in them not bothering very much as an adult even though they know how to do it?

Is it really as simple as "monkey see, monkey do?" I.e. no matter how much Mum taught them, if there is a bloke in the house who doesn't do these tasks, it has more of an impact?

I think it is certainly a major factor that conveniently gets overlooked whilst blaming mothers, put it that way Elspeth .

My DH does lots of housework - probably more than I do, but his brother is awful. He has no shame in admitting he thinks it's women's work and expects his partner to do it. It's his mother's fault, she runs around after them when they visit like it's a hotel, and she has sexist views herself - she also thinks it is women's work and she is a woman, so what hope did her kids ever have.

Just coming on to say my usual piece about the types of household tasks men and women do. Women often say things like "we split the household take equally- he does does the DIY, mows the lawn, changes the oil in the car and takes the bins out-I do the cooking and cleaning"

Which, unless you need a new shelf every day, have 100 acres of lawn and 365 cars, can in no way be describes as an equal division of labour.

I know a lot of couples. I know very few where the man routinely makes packed lunches, nit combs and checks to make sure the children have clean school uniform. As my brother puts it, have you ever heard a woman say to a man, "Darling, have I got any clean pants?"

It just occurred to me because as it happens it was my Dad who did most/taught me a lot about housework (actually he was still trying to teach me the "right" way to wash up, when I was 38 but that's another story ) and as a result I thought it was normal for men to take ownership of these things.

I ended up with a bloke who'd been living on his own for about 15 years and was basically the same as my Dad in terms of housework.

So it was definitely monkey see monkey do with me. I have a son and am grateful that he's going to actually see his Dad doing all the housework that I do as we have a "whoever gets to it first" system.

Its historic, my mum said my marriage ended because I 'expected' him to do house jobs.

This included changing nappies and looking after his daughter.

To be fair he was great with housework, nappies etc and the reason our marriage ended was because he's a cheating idiot!

My MIL has a next door neighbour. A nice woman in her 60s, fit and healthy, who cleans from dawn to dusk. Her husband and adult children don't have to do anything. I have to confess to enjoying shocking her. It makes me feel like a 1970s bra burning women's libber, as that's clearly how she sees me.

Me: On I never do DHs laundry.
Her: (weakly) never???
Me: No, we have separate baskets.
Her: But why not?
Me: Cos dear old Dad told me never to wash a grown mans pants!
Her:
Me: But then he's never offered to wash my knickers either, ho ho!!
Her:

I think the historical argument has to be the root of it, but everyone has to take responsibility for their own part in perpetuating these stereotypes. My DH does a lot around the house but we do tend to have our own tasks. He does the bins and the washing up, I do the cooking. We both do the laundry. He hoovers, I clean bathrooms. Etc. His own parents are very traditional (except for his dad cooking) so I don't know why he ended up being so different.
But I worry that in some ways we are still subconsciously teaching my son gender roles by me doing all the cooking and DH doing all the driving when we are together. I think we need to address this while he is still small.

Just coming on to say my usual piece about the types of household tasks men and women do. Women often say things like "we split the household take equally- he does does the DIY, mows the lawn, changes the oil in the car and takes the bins out-I do the cooking and cleaning"

Which, unless you need a new shelf every day, have 100 acres of lawn and 365 cars, can in no way be describes as an equal division of labour.

Lol. Except, unless you hoover the house every day, and make a three-course michelin-starred meal three times a day, then maybe those tasks are not so complicated either. Maybe hoovering the carpet and washing/waxing/drying/valeting two cars each week-end are roughly equal? Maybe sticking a meal in the microwave is no more than popping a few holes in the lid and setting the timer. Maybe an annual full spring clean is equivalent a full clear-out of the gutters every April. It is possible that your comparison is a bit skewed. I mean, my wife has a nice shiny new car, which I have to keep clean. When something needs doing, e.g. brakes or oil, it pops a light on the dashboard - which she will ignore until I get in it, and ask her how long it has been lit. She just doesn't 'see' it. Well, either that or she doesn't care about destroying a four thousand pound engine. But I know that not all women are like her, so I won't generalise.

I have a teenage son and daughter. Neither of them likes cleaning, or ironing, or washing up. Both have to be ordered to do it, usually repeatedly, by me. They will get away with whatever I let them. But as a fully functioning adult, I won't tolerate them slacking off, so I nag until it's done. It's human nature to avoid dull, repetitive tasks, and is independent of gender.

Lots of people hoover every day. A meal doesn't have to be 'Michelin starred' to be complicated - even spaghetti bolognese involves buying all the right ingredients, preparing them, cooking them, serving, tidying up. Not worthy of international recognition of course, given that it's just a dull task, but time consuming nonetheless.

Taking care of cars and mowing lawns doesn't require mental engagement.

Meal planning does.

I'm a bloke and in all honesty I am as messy as all hell. Hygiene is important, but otherwise I can't be doing with spending vast swathes of time on it.

For the record my car is a mess as well. My solution is to avoid relationships with particularly tidy people. I think it's a general compatibility issue. I'd avoid up-at-the-crack-of-dawn early risers for much the same reason.

In a bizarre twist of fate however I have ended up with a particularly tidy little boy, and completely out of the blue it bothers me if he's not well turned out and I know he likes having a tidy bedroom, so we do a fair bit of tidying up, but we do it together so it's all good.

I think the work involving children too often defaults to the women in relationships, so I empathise with the frustration. Which I think is a shame as a lot of bonding can happen when doing that stuff.

My point was that it is usually the low level repetitive drudgery of household tasks that fall to women. Things that have to be done every single day. Children's tea, lunch boxes, nit combing, sock pairing, school letter signing and returning..............

I know a lot of men, for example, who get huge kudos for cooking a fantastic Sunday Lunch. The kudos tends to carry them past the 12 other meals required until the following Sunday..............