Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

I would suggest that both of the two people who decide to have children together balance caring for those children with paid work in a a system that recognises that caring for children is an essential occupation, not something that needs to be grudgingly 'accommodated'

I would suggest that both of the two people who decide to have children together balance caring for those children with paid work in a a system that recognises that caring for children is an essential occupation, not something that needs to be grudgingly 'accommodated

So does that mean both parents should work? I agree that caring responsibilities should be looked upon as essential and work should be more flexible to accommodate this.

I think it's very risky for an adult not to work for long periods of time WhenShe. I wouldn't say both parents should work as it's up to all individuals how they run their own lives. What I would say is that I'd like fewer parents, and women in particular, to feel they have no choice but to stay at home because the system makes a situation where both parents work unsustainable.

Also it bothers me that there seems to be an assumption that sacrifice is part of bring a mother and that women just need to accept that they can't 'have it all,' when no one seems to expect anywhere near the same level of sacrifice from dad's - the assumption is that his life will suffer minimal disruption, in fact it seems that on some level there's a belief that women should be grateful for allowing them to be SAHMs. Considering how well many men do out of the SAHM situation that is just bollocks.

That should say 'grateful for men allowing them to be SAHMs'

sparrow

I think it's very risky for an adult not to work for long periods of time WhenShe. I wouldn't say both parents should work as it's up to all individuals how they run their own lives. What I would say is that I'd like fewer parents, and women in particular, to feel they have no choice but to stay at home because the system makes a situation where both parents work unsustainable

I agree with every word of that (would never choose not to work myself but I know it works for other couples).
Really awful that people women don't see the point in work because child care costs more than they earn. I would have loved to have gone part time for a while but employer refused the request.

Decent part time jobs with good career progression are like gold dust.

Equally I'd also like to a situation where more men are able to be truly involved in the upbringing of their children.

As a SAHM approaching the age of 40, I admit it does feel humiliating to acknowledge that I haven't earned my "own" money in 14 years. I think it's quite shocking actually.

However, we chose to have 4 DC - none of them were accidents! Choices and compromises had to be made.

In some sense, it does feel like my own career potential has been hijacked by DH's career decisions and attitudes. On the other hand, I do think I should feel privileged to have been able to have this time with the DC and "opt out" of the pressures of the labour market and the need to juggle childcare, etc. Not everyone has this choice and I'm very aware of that. But how much of my situation was real choice and how much was a consequence of the reality of 4 DC and a workaholic husband, I'm not sure.

Basically, I don't know what to think.

Everyone's circumstances are so different, it's futile to try and reach any consensus about the "right" approach or how people should feel. For instance, in our local area, there is a high proportion of expat wives whose careers have been stunted because they don't even know where they will be living in two years time or whatever. Are they wrong in this lifestyle choice?

The irony in our case is that, when we decided to have DC, DH made the decision to leave a good career in the military because he didn't want to potentially be away from the family for 6 month stints. He started up his own businesses - things snowballed from there - now he's away on business probably 2 nights a week on average which adds up to about 3 months in a year anyway . Many families live like this though. I would say that good parenting is an attitude of mind (making the most of the time you do have with your family), rather than how many hours you work.

I do believe though, that women are far more programmed than men to feel guilty about their work/life balance, whatever choices they make.

Equally I'd also like to a situation where more men are able to be truly involved in the upbringing of their children

I think this is improving though. I see loads of dads at school drop off (dh normally drops off but occasionally has an early meeting).

Definitely more mums than dads taking kids to parties but there's always some dads there.

I think it's moving in the right direction, we still need big improvements though.

I don't think it's a matter of 'right' and 'wrong' - there isn't a moral element to it all really.

Most people grow up wanting a good job and wanting a family at some point. As society currently stands, the vast majority of men get both, while a large proportion of women only get one.

While I think the fact that women lose out on a career is a definite problem I also feel that men do genuinely lose out by missing out on a lot of their children's childhoods. Their conditioned not to really care about it but I've known men in their 60s who look at their grown up children and truly despair at how much they missed.

They're conditioned

Sparrowhawk - very true when you put it like that.

While I think the fact that women lose out on a career is a definite problem I also feel that men do genuinely lose out by missing out on a lot of their children's childhoods

Yes I think a lot of fathers now are keen to be involved with their children. Less seem to be prepared to take the hit in a career sense though. I don't know many men who have gone part time to see their kids more.

I do think things have improved definitely. But I also know a few men who didn't even take the basic two weeks paternity leave on the pretext that they 'couldn't' because it would 'look bad' or some such shit. It angers me that some men are happy to see their partners make massive sacrifices to bring children into the family but won't even take two measly weeks off themselves.

Regarding men not taking leave its shit.

I would love to see a system where men get 1 months leave - fully paid to be taken at the end of the partners mat leave.
You would still get some men not taking it but at least it gets round the "we can't afford it issue"

Paternity leave should be compulsory, the same way maternity leave is (for the first two weeks)

I'm not on board with this 'fully paid' bullshit. Women are rarely fully paid for the months and months of leave they take. The idea that men have to get a better deal or they just won't bother is so fucking insulting.

I'm not on board with this 'fully paid' bullshit. Women are rarely fully paid for the months and months of leave they take. The idea that men have to get a better deal or they just won't bother is so fucking insulting.

But if your mentality is that the woman's career is secondary/expendable, while the man is breadwinner, then this attitude makes sense. His career is more important because he is supporting the family, so he can't afford (financially or in career terms) to take time off. The woman's career is by contrast seen as optional so the financial and personal damage of maternity leave is acceptable.

In some sense, it does feel like my own career potential has been hijacked by DH's career decisions and attitudes. On the other hand, I do think I should feel privileged to have been able to have this time with the DC and "opt out" of the pressures of the labour market and the need to juggle childcare, etc. Not everyone has this choice and I'm very aware of that. But how much of my situation was real choice and how much was a consequence of the reality of 4 DC and a workaholic husband, I'm not sure.

I think this is the crux of it actually. There is I think often a perception that SAHM is a position of 'privilege'- that women who SAH should be grateful to their DH's for taking the financial burden and freeing them to be at home with the children. But in practice (a) the DH gains considerably in career terms and (b) only a proportion of what a lot of SAHMs do is a privilege. Yes, a SAHM might enjoy the time with the DC, but there is no little privilege in being cleaner/cook/household organiser/financial dependent. There are gains, yes, but there are also considerable costs and the costs often seem to get lost.

Women are rarely fully paid for the months and months of leave they take

Should have said women should get at least one month on full pay too. Trust me I know what sat maternity pay is like - my employer only paid the basics.

Sorry- that should say there is little privilege not there is no little privilege

I agree Giraffe. There is an insidious attitude that having children is an inconvenient hobby that women tend to have, which men kindly accommodate. The idea that men should actually participate, even if that means sacrifices for them, seems alien. Both women and men have children. It's not a 'woman's issue'

Plus I've come across the truly bizarre notion more than once that when women look after children for 24 hours at a time, getting little or no sleep, they're 'do doing nothing'. But when a man looks after children for two hours after full night's sleep he's 'so good, so helpful,' doing such a hard thing. How does that logic work??

Flexibility is certainly important. Despite the fact that I work a much more pressurised job than DH since his change of job, and despite having more hours, there is no denying that I have a flexibility that he doesn't, partly because the job can take it, but mostly because I have the most understanding and accommodating boss ever. When my DS was ill 50% of the time between 1 and 3 years, he let me take the time off unquestioningly, knowing that I would still do the work. That is very, very rare. But that's one of the solutions to the whole thing. I did do the work. It was hard, but I did, because my boss had faith in me that I would and left me to sort it out in a way that mad everything possible.

And the thing about gaining recognition for what we do is much, much more important than it looks. A friend of mine had to go back into the paid workforce earlier than she intended, her youngest of three was still at primary school. She couldn't even get a cleaning job because they said she had no experience. Perhaps that's an extreme example, but I think there is a LOT of assumption that SAHMs have no transferable skills whatsoever.

X-post Sparrowhawk.
Yes! A babysitter once watched DH playing with DS when he got home to relieve her (I was still at work), and said "it's so lovely to see a hands-on dad." Now, he is much more than many (and it's getting better), but really? That's a big assumption to make from a 5-min tussle on the sofa. I doubt anyone would say that to me if I spent 5 minutes playing with DC.