Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

I do find it odd when people claim recognition and pay are not important. How many people would choose to be, say, a hairdresser if they were unpaid and had no hope of anyone taking any notice of what they do?

I do find it odd when people claim recognition and pay are not important. How many people would choose to be, say, a hairdresser if they were unpaid and had no hope of anyone taking any notice of what they do?

Well we go back to the idea that caring for one's own children is a privilege- and therefore one needs no recognition of course. In fact, to need/want recognition for the hard work one does in bringing up one's own children is to degrade the relationship between mother and child and reduce it to the level of a transaction.

Of course, this analysis only applies to women. As indicated above, men get plenty of recognition for their wondrous parenting. My DH was once congratulated by a (female) friend of his for managing to bring wet wipes and crayons when taking our (then) 2 year old out for lunch.

Of course, this analysis only applies to women. As indicated above, men get plenty of recognition for their wondrous parenting. My DH was once congratulated by a (female) friend of his for managing to bring wet wipes and crayons when taking our (then) 2 year old out for lunch

I can only hope that the more we see men out and about with their kids the less surprised people will be.

FurryGiraffe - you're right. I've never really needed recognition from anyone else for parenting my own kids because it's an instinct. Yes it's a job, but it's far more than that.

Not sure if this is the right place to vent. I've recently been doing some diy to the front of the house which involves using power tools. Two neighbour's have said stuff like 'I'm impressed. You're doing a great job' etc etc. Now I know they're just making chit chat but it reveals the underlying assumption that tools are for men. I asked DH how he'd feel if people came over and told him they were impressed if he was using a drill. He agreed it was small talk but he would be offended. But they wouldn't say that to a man would they.

And that when dh's family members give us cakes it's me they show it to, not their relative because he has a penis which renders him incapable of complimenting or caring about a cake. Where's my vagina affords me the necessary soft skills to sound interested in how long it took, I can't wait to try it, I looks amazing etc.

Of course, this analysis only applies to women. As indicated above, men get plenty of recognition for their wondrous parenting.

My DH was the SAHP when our children were small. We had quite a few discussions about how differently people in general treated both of us than they would have done if I was the one at home. Even though the reality was that this was the only economically viable option I lost count of the number of family and friends who told me how lucky I was to be able to work long hours away from my children because DH was selfless enough to out his (then non existent) career on hold. DH was also frequently congratulated on by relative strangers on what a good job he was doing by managing to cope with a baby as well as taking a toddler out and about to join in activity groups not to mention the swoons of amazement that he also cooked a meal for both of us in the evening ready for when I got in. He seemed to think that all SAHP would get this appreciation.

There was one time when he took the DC away on his own for a few days (I was called away on urgent business) when he did comment to me that everyone in the hotel/tourist attractions etc was fussing over him and making sure he never had to queue/collect his own drinks etc but he ahd noticed that mums alone with their children were basically treated as a bit of a nuisance if they were struggling to juggle buggies/food/toddlers etc.

I really think that the average man is entirely blind to this difference in the way men and women are treated as parents.

Another area where the roles are so divided is identifying special needs in dc. I have often wondered out loud to DH how long he would have taken to pick up on dd's social difficulties which led to me getting her the necessary attention to be dx with ASD, and quite quickly once she'd had the first assessment. I appreciate I am with her more, but he's with her a lot too. At the time I requested her referral to screening he couldn't see a problem although I had explained my concerns. He was surprised by the dx whereas I wasn't. He now says it's obvious to him. But is that because a professional agreed with me?

Sorry if this is last posting but this thread covers just about every rant I've had recently. Including a recent one in chat here. I am nodding along with all these posts.

Not sure how much sense I made on the thread. I was pretty pissed off but will copy my OP below. I should have posted here! Responses by the end were a bit annoying.

^Recently separated, a fact I seem to have started a dozen bloody threads with - sorry, and my current irritation is all the bloody sympathy for my STBXH - the long list of people (add my mother) who are sorry for poor dads who lose out when it comes to contact/residence of the children. Poor Ex-H. Its so sad for him, it's so tough on the dads....etc^

^I am a SAHM, I have little prospects of a good career again (though obviously there's no reason for me not to get a wee fucking Saturday job now). DH has doubled his salary since I left work. Has a job I would love - and be good at. He works during the week and sees his kids as much as he wants when not working - so most of the weekend.^

^What more can I do? The DC are with me because I have been their main carer for years.^

^It really pisses me off that DH is an amazing provider, a great "hands on" father and has everyone's sympathy because the children aren't with him on weekdays.^

^Am I just grumpy or is this justifiable anger?^

Wow chunkymum can't believe how people completely flip the comments around! So women are lucky and men great whichever way round it is. Makes me so cross.

Nope, not grumpy. Anger entirely justifiable. He's getting sympathy because he doesn't see the kids during the week, when he probably never saw them much then anyway. You are the the mean ex-wife keeping him away from his children who doesn't even deign to have paid employment- utterly ignoring the fact that you have shouldered the bulk of the child rearing and enabled his career for years, with the result that you are likely now in a rather precarious position financially. It's shit.

I do find it odd when people claim recognition and pay are not important. How many people would choose to be, say, a hairdresser if they were unpaid and had no hope of anyone taking any notice of what they do?

So who should be paying and recognising it? You keep saying this but offer no suggestion of how this is supposed to happen.

At the time I requested her referral to screening he couldn't see a problem

As a SN parent (DD with ASD) who socialises with lots of SN parents, this seems to be very very common.
So many of the mums bring their SN kids to various groups, while the dad stays away, and say their DH doesn't think anything is wrong with them.
My theory is the men see it as some kind of failure on their part to father SN children, so are in denial. I don't think it's unusual for people to accept a professional diagnosis over an amateur one though.

My theory is the men see it as some kind of failure on their part to father SN children, so are in denial.

Interesting. I believe that men are generally less likely to seek medical attention for themselves/seek medical attention late (perception of weakness? Sense that they should simply endure? Burying head in sand/denial about illness)? I wonder if the reasons behind failure to seek SEN diagnosis is related. Of course in fairness, the average father has less contact both with their own children and other children than the average mother, so it is probably more difficult to see that their own child is not typical.

Having grown up in an incredibly sexist community and family, I am now a mix of sometime unjustifiable anger and unconscious gendered behaviour. So...
-Being the one to care about the house bring a mess and getting angry with the family for not keeping it to my unattainably high standards. I should, but can't, chill out about it.

• working like crazy in a high pressure job to prove I'm better than the men around me - but getting stressed by it.
• calling out sexism wherever I see it - not a bad thing per se - and my adult dd's have picked up the baton, which is great.

What would be behind the man seeing it as some personal failure? And that putting their need for denial ahead of their dcs need for support?

Re men being less able to notice SEN signs, it could also be related to socialisation - men are typically socialised to be less aware of social / emotional cues in others, and like most human beings won't usually actively try to build the skill unless there is a direct benefit to them. Whereas women are more likely to be "trained" from an early age to pick up on subtle social and emotional cues.

What would be behind the man seeing it as some personal failure?

I think the machismo they are conditioned to. To not be weak, to not be less than their peers. Men ridicule each other for "firing blanks" and all sorts of attacks on their masculinity by their so called mates.

And that putting their need for denial ahead of their dcs need for support?

Ultimately, selfishness probably. But then, if they're in denial, they're not accepting it, so in their minds they aren't putting their needs first.

Also, perhaps they have pre-conceived ideas that conditions like autism are somehow not real, down to bad parenting. I hear stories of the SN dad's being too strict, thinking the kids are "just naughty".

If you don't look after a child say in and day out it can be easy to see SN behaviours as naughtiness because you're not getting the full picture. The fact that some men simply don't trust their female partners to know when a child needs help comes from a more deep seated misogyny I think.

I don't think SAHPs should necessarily be paid Lass, though I am in favour of child benefit, tax credits etc. My point is that childrearing should be recognised by the government, society and employers not as an annoying inconvenient thing women do but as a normal thing to expect many men and women of childbearing age to do so that it has to be built in to the structure of work. My aim would be that women don't feel pushed out of work because work sees caring commitments as being g entirely their inconvenient problem.

Not seeing SN has parallels in other areas. My DS is allergic to dairy. I pushed this for ages on my own. DH was certainly first to come round to the idea (unlike the consultant paediatrician who told me I was a hysterical mother who was trying to medicalise my child), but it took time. As did the add-on diagnosis of soya intolerance when DS was put on soya milk and within two weeks was screaming the house down again.

As for my FIL's comments about DS when he was born 9 weeks early, I can't even write them here, and I find it very hard to forgive him for them. Nothing the same from MIL.

I think part of the problem is that running a home/looking after children is seen as a menial job that anybody could do - that it requires no particular skill or mental ability. In actual fact, keeping even adequate control of a household and children requires a very large amount of quite complex, endless and tedious planning and things go wrong very quickly if you're not on top of it. Because men have subtly been taught that 'women's work' isn't very valuable, it's all a bit silly, they don't see any real need to put any effort into it - they just wing it, and of course it's all a mess because really, you can't wing it, not for any length of time.

DH and I had massive problems wrt housework and childcare, so massive that I asked for a divorce. He pulled his finger out majorly but soon it became clear that he genuinely thought he could put effort into running the house for two weeks and that would be enough, it would somehow all magically keep running after that. It took him an amazingly long time to realise that actually running a house takes effort and planning every single fucking day, all the time, constantly. You can't just do it once and it's done (unlike traditionally 'male' jobs, which do tend to result in a noticeable difference, like a new piece of furniture, and tend to be one-off or once every couple of weeks) and often you have to do the same thing over and over and over and over without anybody taking any notice at all. It has finally sunk in for him and he find it exhausting. I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Also, a male friend of mine was a right dick when his DD was born - he expected his very very sleep deprived wife, who was struggling with a really difficult baby, to have the house spotless at all times, to cook his dinner, do his laundry etc. Then, when the DD was about 14 months (and still a difficult baby) the roles changed and he became a SAHP. He very very quickly changed his tune. Even years later he would get very upset talking about it, saying how he'd never make it up to her and he'd make sure she wouldn't have to lift a finger for the next 12 years (the number of years in which he didn't pull his weight around the house, mostly pre-DD of course). Until he had to do it himself, and he found it very hard, he couldn't see what a dick he was being - he genuinely thought his lovely wife was just shirking (though why she would do that is anyone's guess - she's far from lazy.)

Should have said women should get at least one month on full pay too. Trust me I know what sat maternity pay is like - my employer only paid the basics.

You're presumably talking about the annual leave accrued over ML, which is a touch disingenuous.