Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

Honestly bitof I just did some googling and found all sorts of studies about associations between porn and violence.

Widespread access to the internet gave birth to the ability of young males to access extreme porn and violence, to seek it out in whatever form and quantity their young hearts could hope to wish for, acts so bizarre and deprave they are beyond what most adult minds could dream up. Anyone ever hear of mummification porn?

Free, easy and all but invisible access to a veritable cornucopia of porn without parallel in human history, beyond the jump of erotica from oil paintings and lithographs to photography. This was all delivered to them in a very short historical time-frame, its growth allowed and traceable via the uptake of the internet within society itself.

Those male masturbatory pioneers of the new porn era were children when my daughters were children. My daughters are now both adults. I ask, in all seriousness, where is the massive sexual and violent dysfunction of western societies this should have, to my mind, logically created and manifested by now?

I went looking for facts about this myself, but I ran into seeming problems of societal definitions and changing perceptions of domestic violence, evolving through time. As a broad idea I felt that if domestic violence was increasing, domestic violence deaths would also increase.

I dont know what has happened in the UK but in Australia reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly, but deaths have gone down. This seems illogical to me, there is no 'amazing medical care' that has surfaced that would cause a drop in fatalities. To my mind it suggests more common reporting of violent incidents, or greater sensitivity by individuals classifying it as such.

What has statistically happened in the UK over the last 10 year time-frame?

I am likely not far off the age of your daughters and I see and read of a good deal of "sexual and violent dysfunction in western societies"

Perhaps it is easier for you not to see it

"As a broad idea I felt that if domestic violence was increasing, domestic violence deaths would also increase....I dont know what has happened in the UK but in Australia reports of domestic violence have increased, markedly, but deaths have gone down. "

Corpses or it didn't happen?

Remember when DadWasYoung and would go to school where he would see photographs of girls that schoolmates had raped at a recent party being shared in homeroom? That wasn't a common part of my 1980s childhood, but pish posh that and let's call it a reporting issue, boys were taking and sharing rape photos all along and always have been.

Good thing Rehtaeh Parsons killed herself so her corpse counts. Despite photographic evidence and witnesses, her rapists got off scott free.

"A Nova Scotia man who texted a photo that showed him penetrating a 15-year-old girl and flashing a thumbs-up while she vomited won't see the inside of a jail anytime soon. Instead, today a judge sentenced the man to 12 months probation."

www.vice.com/en_ca/read/no-jail-time-for-man-who-texted-photo-of-himself-penetrating-rehtaeh-parsons-while-she-vomited-273

Rapists have always photographed their rapes, been CONVICTED, and then been set free. What sexual and violent dysfunction? I don't see any sexual and violent dysfunction.

Actually, the paper referred to in that Psychology Today article say:

"This study suggests that, when controlling for important other factors, SEM consumption influences sexual behaviors. The small to moderate associations that emerged between SEM consumption and sexual behavior after controlling for other variables suggest that SEM is just one factor among many that may influence youth sexual behaviors."

The problem is how men view women and how men and women view sex. That isn't just spread by pornography, but by the general culture.

What is warped is our whole culture, and porn is part of that. It's not just the ole 'porn creates rapists' scare-mongering, just that porn is part of what creates ordinary everyday boys and blokes, many of whom have a fairly sick view of how they are supposed to relate to girls and women.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2731528-Guest-post-Violence-against-women-and-girls-is-rising-so-why-isnt-SRE-compulsory

Yes Smalldyke and felsa "small to moderate associations". What is not evidenced is a clear cut causal link. It has been implied repeatedly on this thread that porn causes (all?? Most?) users to abuse women.

Porn plays a similar role to alcohol. Alcohol (and porn) are associated with domestic violence but they do not cause it. A teenage boy who uses porn is not more likely to abuse someone than a boy who does not use porn. It is his preexisting views that hold most sway.

And that I think is the key, it is the views formed before boys encounter porn that are really important. By focusing on porn, which like alcohol, can be used responsibly we are ignoring where the real damage is being done.

DadWasHere violent crime is decreasing across the Western world which is why any act of domestic violence stands out so much. Greater reporting of incidences of sexual harassment/assault does seem to be happening but the numbers are still very worrying. Why is it still happening?

SomeDyke "The problem is how men view women and how men and women view sex. That isn't just spread by pornography, but by the general culture." Exactly.

I think the emphasis on porn is not helpful. It appeases the Mail readers but does nothing to tackle the real issues. The way we are socialising our young men before pubity is where the real issues are. Porn scares make easy headlines, everyone can agree. More nuanced stories about different approaches to educating boys are dismissed as lefty nonsense.

Buffy As politely as possible, I really don't need your validation about anything as I don't actually know anything about you.

I am however intrigued by the issues this thread has raised. I am surprised and a bit shocked at some of the information I have found out. I enjoy the argument and the intellectual engagement. I spend a lot of my working life trying not to snigger as the lads swap knob gags.

bitof association means exactly that boys watching porn are more likely to abuse women, in the same way men that drink are more likely to hit their wives. Causation is more difficult (ie did the porn cause the boy to be violent, did the alcohol cause the man to hit his wife?). Especially in a society where everyone watches porn.
My point was there is as much (if not more) science to support the idea porn contributes to violence as that it doesn't. And to analyse and interpretty that needs experts, not people who don't understand how to interpret research ripping studies to support their position off the Internet.
Incidentally this report poses your very question and links some interesting studies

www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/20/goldsmith.pdf (pdf link)

There is also this
cyber.harvard.edu/vaw02/mod2-6.htm

This

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862768

Cba to Google more but please stop holding up your studies as definitive evidence porn is fine. It really isn't.

It isn't definitive evidence I mean. I also don't think porn is fine but that's my opinion not a fact.

Felsa "And to analyse and interpretty that needs experts, not people who don't understand how to interpret research ripping studies to support their position off the Internet. "

I will slink away and bow my head in shame. I will listen to experts and not try to develop my own ideas. I will make no attempt to challenge the views of others. I will do no research of my own. Wow are you a bloke?

Having read many reports (thanks for the link) I think the only definitive conclusion is that we just don't know. There is science on both sides. I do not claim to be right only interested and putting forward an argument.

Other people are the ones who know right from wrong. Not me.

You would have to be very thick indeed to need a report in order to understand that porn is culturally toxic when it advertises itself with such teasers as these ones I saved from my old Hotmail account:

My mom sucked my penis and i liked it
ce urinating pussy pics/movies
nude pictures of my little sis jenny
Thirsty for cum
young & doing it for the 1st time
this cutey spread her legs wide open for us
Hardcore Honeys
It Was Bloody
tiny chicks huge dicks
Crazy Girls MAKE it fit..
Cum Swallowing Blondes
Booty shakin ho's
Jizz guzzlers
why get a pro, get a first timer
Hidden shower cams
Small town sluts
Tight hot teens K
Filthy animal love
Humping my leg
100%free H0rnY eboNy girLs
Petite women try to handle these MonsTer C0ck...
Tight hot teens J
Watch Me Pickup My Friends Mom And Screw Her ...
Watch How I get My Friends Mom To Suck On My ...
-Riding and blowing big Dicks for the first ti...
bathroom cameras
B!g T!tty BL0nde Wh0re
Completely free dirty teens s
Where the D!ck G0es
More pussy than u can shake a dick at.. 3k
Twins Get..Fucked...Hard..
Blonde...Hardcore models get Slammed..
teenagers with little B cups
Make Her Choke On Your Huge Knob
Watch These Sloppy Teen Girls Get It All Over
Check Out These Amateur Teen Sl-uts Begging F...
Check Out These Sleeping Teen Girls Being Scr...
women in heat
nude teen stars
Stupid...Blondes get slapped..in the Ass...
chicks face looks like a glazed donut
Seduced....Blondes get Abused
wild lolitas
Watch These Sloppy Teen Girls Get It All Over
naughty schoolgirls
s e e these hoes take it deep
Check Out These Amateur Teen Sluts Begging F...
Watch These Hidden Shower Cams Of Hot College...
Drunk..College girls..get taken..Advange off....
Hot Teen Lesbian Threesomes After Mom Leaves
th>ese frea'ks >do anyt\hing
,Dirty,Amateurs,
Nasty ButtSluts take it in the Ass!
Shocking hole stretching
AdV...Mature Blondes..sucking.
You get to see this girl have a dickSlurpee
Bend over my pretty wife for no money Jm ...
Make Her Bleed After You Smack Her Coc-kpit W...
Watch These Sloppy Teen Girls Get It All Over
Nasty..Asian Teens..bent Over..
DEsperate..Mature Blondes..do anything..
Mature..Panty HOs..
Blonde..Hos Getting..Nasty

Bit unnecessary sillage Eeeeeew

Hahaha bitof I have done tests showing I have a male brain! Of course you can challenge other views. But if you dismiss some people's researched views as "politicians going blah blah blah" and try to misinterpret/misrepresent research to try to prove your point then I don't think you can be surprised to be picked up on it.

Sorry, Felascloak, I figured anyone still reading after 11 pages would be able to handle the words.

And that's not even stills from porn or moving scenes from porn, it's just the ad copy written to advertise the porn and sent unsolicited into millions of people's inboxes.

There's a concerted attempt to be as vague as possible when talking about porn (whatnow123 never disclosed what porn he watched, very few people defending porn do), and I think specifics are important, though I wouldn't go so far as to force people to see the images without their consent.

Bit off the topic but Sillage your Internet settings / virus software must have been seriously askew. I've never received anything remotely like the stuff you listed.

Well, that was Hotmail in the late 90s for ya.

My point was there is as much (if not more) science to support the idea porn contributes to violence as that it doesn't. And to analyse and interpretty that needs experts, not people who don't understand how to interpret research ripping studies to support their position off the Internet.

If 'experts' who study water still argue its effects after a biblical flood envelopes everyone, even idiots have a right to laugh at them.

Likewise, Buffy. But I remember a comment someone from Greenpeace made at a talk on climate change - for most people, if you draw to their attention a mismatch between their beliefs and their actions, they'll adjust their beliefs before they adjust their actions. So I think people who are heavily emotionally and psychologically invested in using porn to masturbate to orgasm (the action) will adjust their beliefs like crazy ("well, 'teen sluts getting ruined asses' isn't actual harm is, it's not like there are any actual dead bodies there?") rather than give up on the action. Then it becomes almost like Kuhn's gestalt figures - they've invested so much in seeing the duck face (no dead bodies here) that they can't see the rabbit (real women undergoing real pain and physical injury during filming, toxic environment for women and anyone interested in a consensual, mutually enjoyable reciprocal sex life).

But I remember a comment someone from Greenpeace made at a talk on climate change - for most people, if you draw to their attention a mismatch between their beliefs and their actions, they'll adjust their beliefs before they adjust their actions.

This is really central to all of feminism.
It happens to women, too - if you know, you are in a harmful situation (patriarchy) the action that logically follows would be to work on getting out of this situation. If you don't do that, you have to justify it by adjusting your beliefs accordingly, which many do.
Or you will have to put up with the uncomfortable feeling of there being a mismatch - something that all radical feminists do to a varying degree. (Liberal feminists who think that equality has been achieved and "feminist" is just a shiny label, have found a way out of avoiding that mismatch.)

That's why it is so dangerous to do something against your beliefs in the first place. There's psychological studies on how, if you make people perform an unpleasant task without payment, they will start to "enjoy" it, as their brain has to find a reason why they are doing it in the first place.

I'm astonished that anyone can look at that list (or at the front page of something like Porn Hub) and think to themselves 'Well I certainly won't believe that there's any harm here until I see irrefutable proof that these specific videos cause deaths'.

Yes exactly. It's the mindset between someone who goes "eew" and quickly closes the browser and those who go "interesting..."

It's the mindset between recognising those activities are incompatible with human dignity and not getting that point.

Yes, absolutely Vestal - there's the issue of partially adjusting your belief set and living with cognitive dissonance which is of course a fundamental psychological coping mechanism for situations which are horrendous but we can't change them, but also becomes one used for situations which we enjoy but know are morally dubious and don't want to change.

Lass - definitely. That's it in a nutshell.

Yes very interesting post vestal. For most women too, thiking about "the patriarchy" and class based oppression of women by men is really hard because all of us have that dynamic in our own life so it's all very close to home. Whereas recognising discrimination of eg disabled people is maybe a bit easier because for many people it's quite depersonalised

So what's the answer.

I think ideas such as passport verification to access porn sites, verification of all amateur content, the opt out system on the internet are all good starts.

I'm don't think porn can be feminist but most people would agree with better controls, regardless of your views on the medium. An outright ban (whatever that means) will not and should not happen.

That's awful buffy. That poor woman.