Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

By the way the smoking analogy was not a long thought out thing, it was a spur of the moment comparison to show how something can be legally permitted but not desirable.

Also, I've not really extended it to the end of the example, which would be few, if any people, are forced to smoke, but some are forced into the porn industry.

whatnow123 "I may be wrong but isn't your issue the porn industry, rather than simply the filming of the act?" is that to me?

My issue is with porn. If a couple want to film themselves having consensual sex that isn't porn. If they watch what they filmed, it isn't porn. This is not what the porn industry does, it is not what porn is. So my issue is with porn and the porn industry. I am not sure how one would break the industry down so it would no longer be an industry but we would still have porn.

if a woman with feminist ideological background (probably sex positive) wants to write, direct and produce a video of herself being subjected to extreme BDSM (as we have done here at p4p) then that work is feminist. You can debate it and tell her she only made that video because- patriarchy but ultimately if we use artist intent as the bar for critique then certainly porn can be feminist.

I think its that bit about using artist intent that makes the difference. My issues with Porn being non-feminist are more to do with consumer intent than artist intent. So the normalisation of acts that pontially harm (or at least are not pleasurable for) women is normalised.

The intent of the artist is actually pretty much irrelevant as long as they aren't coerced.

Nope, there are some actions which just aren't feminist. For instance, a woman can tell me till she's blue in the face that she's a committed feminist, but if she pickets abortion clinics, she's lying!

Incidentally, as this thread shows, the arguments round porn are more complex, and lengthier, and there's an argument that in a perfectly equal world with no sexual coercion, pornography would cease to be a problem so its harm is contingent on this world being so screwed up that ultimately "feminist" porn is trying to stick a sticking plaster over a festering wound. And I concede that abortion is a different matter: for me, restricting women's bodily autonomy and forcing them to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth is an absolute wrong, not one which is contingent on the existence of inequalities in our current social set-up. But it's still not as simple as saying "This woman chose to make it. This woman says she's a feminist. Therefore this is a feminist act."

Very interesting buffy! Also relevant to the cultural appropriation thread, if you've been following that.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2729435-to-think-this-is-ridiculous-re-guardian-opinion-piece-on-cultural-appropriation

My opinions are not fixed I don't think that is a weakness. I think some of us are shifting and making accommodations we are not totally comfortable with. And that makes me proud. I would not presume to talk for individuals. I could be wrong.

I did my porn research several years ago and stayed in my niche. This thread had forced me outside and I am thrilled. Ethical porn is moving on nicely.

"Can ethical porn exist? There’s really no reason why it couldn’t, as long as the people involved have agency and a voice. I can recognize that the industry as a whole fails in that regard more often than it succeeds, but I do not agree that it is simply because of filming sex acts. I believe quite strongly that it is because of the combination of patriarchy, capitalism, and shame/ignorance around sexuality, both within and around the porn industry. The best way to challenge that is not, in my opinion, through censorship and abolitionism but through increased awareness of a more positive, successful, enjoyable way to create this content."

www.huffingtonpost.com/kitty-stryker/principled-pornography-ho_b_1435614.html

I had hoped for incremental moves but there are articles in GQ about ethical porn a man has written a book telling men how to source ethical porn. Men are discussing ethical porn! The battle is not won. Porn is not feminist but enough people discussing ethical porn has forced into onto the agenda. It has changed the working environment for some women.

Yes body discipline is still an issue, yes society shapes our expectations, yes women are still oppressed. But in terms of pornography women are not being dismissed (totally) voices are being raised.

The women in the porn industry are finding a voice. Do I always agree with the voice? No. But I will not dismiss it and I am glad I can hear it.

I am confounded. I thought amateur porn would be more ethical but I couldn't be more wrong. Amateur porn reflects more stereotypes and it is professional sites that are shifting the bar.

Can we move the discussion further forward?

Buffy I am a bit compulsive obsessive, obviously

Matilda with you 100% on abortion

Article by Glosswitch.

But yeah, there's no harm to porn at all.

Amazing article xeno thanks for sharing

Interesting opinion piece based on a parliamentary report.

Here is another article that references some scientific research.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/

Clearly not infallible but with some scientific research at least.

Having looked into this recently I am becoming concerned that assaults on women are blamed on pornography in a knee jerk way with little actual research to prove it. IF this is the case then we are failing to look at the actual reasons the attacks continue by focusing on porn usage.
There are wider questions to answer that aren't even being asked.

Nice gloss over the problematic elements of that article with "not infallible" - not least the fact that this "scientific" research fails to acknowledge the fact that there are real people working in porn, real humans

I'm concerned that pornography is being portrayed as a sort of medication to stop men assaulting women. As though the women in porn should be some sort of sacrificial lambs for the good of other women

It's an absolutely disgusting POV, like that argument that we need prostitution to stop men raping. The implication that there needs to be a group of women whose bodies are permanently accessible to men to protect all other women

Which brings us back to glosswitch's entirely valid opinion that it's all about protecting men's orgasms at all costs

Go back in your comfort zone bit. Porn is fine, the rise in school age girls being sexually assaulted and injured during sex acts like anal is pure coincidence.

If people watching "Korean Slut Anal Gangbang" actually reduced racism and sexism against Asians and women then we would have a moral obligation to broadcast such imagery on primetime television nightly so everyone can become less racist and less sexist people.

We could use child porn to let potential child rapists wank the will to rape kids out of their system in a safe(r) way. I'm not saying children getting raped on film is good, but hey, if the harm has already been done then we should use those recordings to enact the greater social good.

Why oh why has no one implemented this simple and genius "watch more movies" solution to preventing violent crimes before???

HapShawl, I did indeed point out that the science was infallible to draw attention to the fact the NS piece was rhetoric. The only facts concerned the rise of assaults. The link to porn has no basis in fact.

No one on this thread has said or implied " that pornography is being portrayed as a sort of medication to stop men assaulting women".

Back to the facts, having done a little bit of research it seems that porn DOES confirm the views of some users towards women but the crucial message is that these users, already believed that. Users who had supportive views on women did not change their point of view.

Somone predisposed to be violent to women chooses to watch violent porn. The same is true with child abusers etc. Users who don't already think like this do not change their views.

Which brings us to the truly disturbing 'wider question' if porn confirms the opinions of those predisposed to be violent how did this belief that women can be sexually assaulted come about?

Blaming porn for this rise in assaults is not proven. It is an easy position to take. You might say it is a comfort zone.

Why do young boys - before they encounter porn - hold this belief?

MPs saying "blah blah porn blah blah sex education" is totally and utterly failing to ask why as are society do our young men feel this is OK?

Porn is a sloppy, knee jerk response with little evidence to back it up, like blaming violent video games for violent crime. MPs throw the bone to the Mail readers and everyone is happy. But nothing is done.

Fallible not infallible

Why do young boys - before they encounter porn - hold this belief?

Short answer: Because patriarchy.

Long answer: Because they are brought up on a diet of books with only male heroes, never asked to have any empathy for girls (yes, there are parents who make sure their precious boys don't have to read female authors, that's why it's J.K. Rowling instead of Joanne Rowling), watch men treat women like objects in everyday life, watch TV (not porn, just regular TV), watch advertisements where women are portrayed as objects or idiots ...

Sexism is everywhere.

That doesn't mean that porn is harmless or that it should be tolerated.

In every other area, the use of propaganda and the ability to affect peoples perceptions towards a group by the use of such material is accepted. So, why should pornography magically be exempt from this effect?

Instead, pornography is the most effective form of propaganda going, in that not only does it teach and reinforce the behaviours and attitudes depicted, but you get an orgasm too!

SomeDyke, if it is so clear cut where is the evidence? Why is this clear evidence not cited by the parliamentary committee?

The studies I have cited show that porn does not change preexisting beliefs. Violent men like violent porn.

Vestal - the patriarchy - indeed, but that has always existed. Why is there a significant increase in assaults now? More reporting? Or more actual attacks?

"But, porn exposure in kids doesn’t have a life-altering, warping effect on children. In fact, recent research in the Netherlands showed that exposure to pornography explained less than 4% of the variance in adolescents behavior. This means that 96% of the reasons why these kids do the things they do have NOTHING to do with the fact that they saw pornography. But, from the hyperbole and panic that we all hear on a regular basis, we are paying a lot more attention to porn than it deserves."

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201402/common-sense-about-the-effects-pornography

"No one on this thread has said or implied " that pornography is being portrayed as a sort of medication to stop men assaulting women"."

The article you linked to implied that. Its logical conclusion was that there has to be a group of women available for men to wank over in order to protect the rest of womenkind from men assaulting them. It was a (less than) veiled threat - deny men porn and they will retaliate and you may be the victim

Honestly bitof I just did some googling and found all sorts of studies about associations between porn and violence. It's not MP's going blah blah blah. My phone isn't letting me c&p links