Should refugees be taught lessons on female equality?

[PinkyofPie]

Thangam Debbonaire MP, who chairs the all-parliamentary group on refugees, believes male refugees settling in Britain should be give lessons in women's equality. link here
This concern seems to have stemmed following the Cologne attacks.

Thoughts?

The reporter also commented that if she moved to Saudi Arabia and was forced to attend classes on local culture, she might nod, smile and appear to agree but would never accept that in fact she should be veiled and never drive a car

That is not a true analogy. And the force of Saudi law would make sure she is veiled and does not drive car.

Yes Atenco, people are saying generally a whole range of cultures are not without fault and that there isn't total equality or freedom from domestic violence etc in any. Is that a problematic generalisation?

But currently it is migration from MENA where cultures are different to European cultures that is causing a mismatch of expectations. It doesn't make one more wrong or right, they are purely different. But if a person from each culture wants to go and live in the others countries then each has to respect the others way of life and rules. Just as in the example above a European woman in Saudi would have to respect the rules of the country she is currently living in however much she may disagree with them. Conversly the man who has come from one of the more conservative cultures needs to understand that in Europe women have different freedoms and cultural norms and these need to be respected, whatever the norms back home and whatever his private thoughts on the matter may be.

Well put, sporting.

WhereYouLeftIt your assumption that I take things at face value is rather sweeping. Perhaps you'd like to spend a week with me working with refugees (from many different countries, not just Aghanistan) and you could ask them yourselves how their family set ups work.

Cutted, unfortunately many of us do not have perhaps the time or the set up to enable us to work with refugees, we do however have experiences of our own country and maybe like myself other countries perhaps in Europe perhaps farther afield and many of us have seen that all too often the caring burden falls on the shoulders of the women of the household, not always but in quite a lot of instances, often because they are already at home caring for children. I've seen many threads on here where women are often at breaking point caring for elderly relatives whose needs have become higher. This is how extended families worked in the past in this country, mine included. However, the dynamic has changed and more women work, we have to, to keep our heads above water financially. Personally if I had to care for an elderly relative I would have to kiss goodbye to my business and a huge chunk of our income.

The family set ups of the refugee families work for them. It does not mean to say that it would work for people living here. People with severe dementia and other issues often need specialist care and that often cannot be given in a setting where there may be young children. It also doesn't take into account the fact that there is often no other option available to familes from elsewhere in the world. Care homes may often not be what we want for our loved ones but sometimes it may be the best thing in terms of care and welfare. While no one assumes you take things at face value, neither do most of us and we appreciate that there are all kinds of shades of grey in these situations.

cutted People have pointed out to you that it wouldn't be the young Syrian refugee who would be looking after his mother, but his wife. Is that not the case then? Would he give up work to do it?

If you look at it from the perspective of the whole family however, presumably the male wage earners have a heavier burden also, since their wage has to support the elderly relative as well as their own generation and children. So I agree they may not be doing the physical care but they will bear responsibility in other ways and also presumably have to defer to their seniors/show respect and so on.

raised yes it's traditional across a lot of the world for young men to stay at home with their mothers after they marry, and for women to marry to enter their husband's household. This arrangement is clearly easier in countries where the physical house can be added to by building new rooms or new floors - you see this a lot in Morocco where floors are added as children grow up and marry. Probably elsewhere too but my travel on other continents is limited.

As Shalli said, the burden on the wage earners is more for these family units and I'm afraid I don't have the insider knowledge to comment on who wipes whose elderly bum, but it's interesting that the UK model of care of the elderly is not widely adopted across the world.

but it's interesting that the UK model of care of the elderly is not widely adopted across the world

And I still think it is relevant to factor life expectancy into this.

My husband's mother and my best friend's mother are 93. I really don't think it is as simple as looking at a country which has an average life expectancy of around 60 and one which has an average life expectancy of around 82 and deciding the one with 60 is better at looking after "elderly" people in their own homes.

In a work situation I talked to a man who was tearing his hair out trying to visit his elderly relative in hospital and work long hours. The family originated from a south Asian culture. He was at pains to tell me that his culture would never use nursing homes - but that he was going to have to as he had a family to support and couldn't give the very demanding daily care his relative needed. I had two reactions - both immense sympathy for the situation he and his relative were in, but also a tiny voice saying 'well, yes - that's why nursing homes exist, do you really think that other cultures are so different from yours?'

Good idea. Start with the basic laws, move onto what's culturally acceptable in this country, and emphasise that where religion conflicts with those laws, its the laws that must be obeyed.

Elderly care - thank god we have choices here. Laughable that the men claiming their way is "best" aren't the ones actually rolling up their sleeves and mopping up the shit.

The topic on Women's hour seemed to suggest an approach where an migrant delivers the talk on women's rights. In that way it wasn't quite so top down

an approach where an migrant delivers the talk on women's rights.

that's an interesting approach

from the Norway video piece it really came across that some of these (highly educated) people felt rather patronised - which is probably a minor issue in the scheme of things, but if it can be avoided with the same result, all the better

I think I'd be rather in favour of classes overall, as long as we're clear that it's highly unlikely to change their values. The realistic aim is to make them aware of social conventions and the law, so that they can understand the culture around them even if they don't identify with it. The rest will need an awful lot of time and interaction with the natives, and will probably only really happen with the next generation.

Within Muslim cultures, is it actually possible for women - e.g. a daughter in law - to care intimately for an elderly male relative? When I have visited Muslim countries, it isn't allowed for men to change in front of each other. No nakedness is tolerated. So when an elderly man needs help going to the toilet or bathing, are non-medical women allowed to see them, help them etc? Are even female doctors and nurses allowed? Excuse my ignorance, I'm just not sure how it works.

poster Chalalala Wed 03-Aug-16 08:14:20
an approach where an migrant delivers the talk on women's rights.

that's an interesting approach

from the Norway video piece it really came across that some of these (highly educated) people felt rather patronised - which is probably a minor issue in the scheme of things, but if it can be avoided with the same result, all the better

I think I'd be rather in favour of classes overall, as long as we're clear that it's highly unlikely to change their values. The realistic aim is to make them aware of social conventions and the law, so that if any crimes do come about ignorance of the law cannot be used as a defence as was used here when the solders raped the locals
so that they can understand the culture around them even if they don't identify with it. The rest will need an awful lot of time and interaction with the natives, and will probably only really happen with the next generation.
Add message | Report | Message poster Grimarse Wed 03-Aug-16 08:55:46

Cuttedup I kknow that, I come from an Indian background myself. Just because the son doesn't leave home, doesn't mean they are doing the caring. The wife is expected to look after the mother in law in that situation. And they aren't all lovely old Indian ladies. My grandmother treated her daughters in law appallingly. Which is why neither of them wanted her living with them, given the choice. Many don't have that choice and are treated as slaves.
My grandmother is 101. She is in a home, despite being from an Indian background. My aunt looked after her for 20 years, but she couldn't cope, as she started to develop dementia and so she is in a home with quite a few other very elderly Asian people. She has outlived one of her sons and one of her grandsons. Her own children are in their '70's and '80's. Life expectancy of course has an impact. It is naive to romanticise the very hard life women live when they have no choice.

pleasemothermay I was more thinking "so that they know not to commit crimes", but yes, also your point. The rules being clear, and known to all, can only be a positive.

cuttedup i am indian. this all reminds me of my aunt - PhD in mathematics - who spent her entire youth and life cleaning shit off bums, floors and walls in a small indian village, where she was taken as a bride to look after her husband's ageing and disabled parents. She looks skeletal now at 65.

Her parents - received care too. From an unmarried daughter - my other aunt, who saw her sister's fate and never married and wiped her own mother's bum till the very end.

All this rose tinted "look at how the lederly are taken care of in asian countries" business - god, I actually have stopped my yearly visits to india. I am fucking done watching my school friends - inteligent capable women - reduced to slaves arounf their MIL's hobs and to getting leered at by indian men every time I try to wear anything there that i can wear in the UK without batting an eyelid.

Well said House.

But the refugees aren't coming from India, are there?

Are male relatives looked after by females? Even bathroom, bathing etc?

Cutteduppear, I take it you've never had to look after an elderly relative with dementia.

People who have never been anywhere near the sharp end (including celebs and politicians in pious mode) love bleating about how nasty we in the UK are, when 'in other countries' people look after their own.

The fact is, many people in the UK do look after their own, if they are able to without collapsing from sheer exhaustion, which is unfortunately frequently the case with dementia. But it's also true that in many countries people have no choice, and in any case, where healthcare is poor or unaffordable, people are not likely to be so long lived. And it's simply not true that people in other countries invariably look after their own.
We have Indian friends, in India, and the wife had a mother with dementia who was looked after in her own home by two live in carers - something which, as my friend pointed out, is a far cheaper and easier thing to organise there than it would be here. She added that of course people in India don't necessarily look after their own, if they can afford an alternative.

I suspect the same goes for many countries, especially in those where domestic help is comparatively cheap and plentiful. Which is a good many.

Grimarse, I am rather sure there is an exception for relatives. Because I cannot imagine the men actually care for their own elderly fathers. I know for a fact that veils are not required with male relatives, so there's that.

Besides, strict views on female chastity didn't keep male medicine students from killing women with childbed fever by grabbing at their ladyparts with hands unwashed after dissecting corpses. When there's conflicting interests, women will always be required to give up privacy and propriety in order to serve male interests.
It is very rare that women manage to use cultural notions of propriety to gain some advantage. Even safety from sexual assault is something only women who are valuable property to a male get.

If segregation of the sexes really was a top priority, then there'd be lots of highly educated female doctors, lawyers, etc., all the professions where the customer has to be alone with you, and probably also female plumbers (single women are in need of such services, too!), female taxi drivers, et cetera.

That women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia ensures that if they ever sit in a car, it is with a man.

But the culture of elder care is similar. If you have been brought up under Taliban rule, and then in a war zone under strict Islamic rules, do you really think that the wives in this situation are going to be treated any differently? Do you think they will have had a choice of whether they want to continue education and a career or look after elderly parents in law? India is one of the more liberal and developed of the nations in that region and they still have a massively patriarchal system. Women have far fewer rights and are expected to do most, if not all of the caring work in those communities. Its not the Brady bunch.

Everyone should be respected and treated fairly. But I think that no matter who you are male or female. You should treat the person how you expect to be treated. If you treat a person poorly/unfairly you deserve the same treatment. You get back what you give out.