Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

[PinkyofPie]

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them

rufus

I'm not aware of having talked about false accusations. I've had to clarify several times that I wasn't talking about false accusations and have been accused of talking about it when the words definitely had not been typed :)

If you don't think men accused of rape deserve a fair trial, why don't you just say so?

gone

When did i say you did talk about false accusations?

And i belive that our justice system is very goid and gives fair trials to those accused of any crimes

Why do you think that men dont get a fair trial?

I think they do , as do women

Goid???

Whats goid???

Good obviously

New I have some issue with your position saying that 'you just would know'.
There has been plenty of threads on here where the OP was saying that they don't want their DC to have contact with X family member because let's say there has been some child pronography on their computer but other family members know that said person would do any harm to the child. Or one person is accused of rape, trial says that there isn't enough proof and family (eg his DW, dcs, friends) all know that's because he never did anything anyway. How? How do all these people know when there is often some clear proof that person isn't that nice?
I would say that's because it's so far from the image they have from that reason that they can't reconcile the facts with what they think so they have decided to ignore the facts.

I'm also unsure about what is 'false allegation' in this thread.
For me a fals allegation is something that someone has said KNOWING it wasn't the truth.
Someone who is taken to Court for rape and then is said to be 'innocent' isn't someone who has been proved to be innocent. It's someone where no proof strong enough to be 100% sure that he is the perpetrator has been found (eg there might be some proof, he might actually be guilty but we haven't been able to prove it) That's very different and someone who is coming out as 'non guilty' wasn't in my books facing 'false allegations' iyswim.

I do fully agree about the system being fair for everyone. But I'm finding it really interesting that, on a thread in the feminism section, so many people are concentrating on what happens on the very very small minority of men that happen to face REAL false allegations but no one talks about the victims or the victims that didn't manage to bring enough proof to have their rapist condemned (how can we change that?), etc etc

I read your post clearly, Emma. My response could've been clearer, though.

Gone, men's humanity is the default. No one on this thread has said false accusations of rape are just dandy. They are not as serious a crime as rape and they are multitudes less frequent than rape, but the airtime they get (as per earlier posts) along with the "he said/she said" meme seems to add up to a societal impression that an accusation of rape is really quite likely to be false; in fact, it's very unlikely.

None of this rules out a fair trial, any more than noting that for all crimes, false accusation rates are well below 10% rules out fair trials for those crimes.

Off for dinner now.

I thought that you were responding to my points rufus when you said that all people had to blether about were false accusations. So I said that I wasn't talking about false accusations. I now realise you must have been thinking of something else entirely.

Interesting that you don't have a problem with how rape is tried in the justice system. I'd got the impression that this was a problem for feminists and with good reason.

I don't think men are treated unjustly by the courts. I was making the point that if feminists want men to care about women being treated unfairly, they need to ensure that it is reciprocated. Being reluctant to see men's anonymity protected until a guilty verdict, despite the huge amount of damage done to men's lives when the accusation is publicised and there is no guilty verdict, does not smack of concern for justice or the welfare of people in general. The suicide case mentioned earlier is a good example - it can't be proved that the suicide and the accusation were connected so feminists are anxious to hang onto that, because otherwise they might be obliged to think seriously about how the situation might have been from his point of view, and they're not interested in doing that.

Feminists may not see the world this way, but I personally think you need to be seen as reasoned and credible in order to have your voice count. If you're calling for compassion or justice, you also need to be perceived as a voice of compassion and justice. By not giving a shiny shit about any other group but themselves (in fact it seems that many feminists' attitude to men is far more antagonistic than just indifferent), feminists are compromising the integrity of their position and undermining their own voice in the conversation. Obviously that is just my opinion...

mammoth I think people are more interested in getting more convictions for rape than this thread would indicate. The OP didn't ask about that, however, hence the direction of the thread. Start a thread about that and I will post on it.

Regarding false accusation vs a 'not guilty' verdict...Are you saying that even if a man is found 'innocent', in your book he probably still did it (given the low rate of false accusations) therefore he should not be treated as 'innocent'? If so, I find that unjust. Campaign for reform in the legal system all you like, but don't push for a society in which someone has absolutely no way of clearing his name because society automatically and irreversibly finds him guilty. Otherwise we're little more than a baying mob.

gone

Why arent you fussed about anonymity for other crimes?

Or are you concerned but you are just hiding it well

I also didn't say that i agree with how rape trials are conducted, just that i think trials are generally fair to the ACCUSED

I'm not hiding anything well. How would saying I thought this should apply to child abuse accusations be hiding it well?

The OP mentioned anonymity in connection with rape; not unreasonably, that's what the thread turned out to be about.

Or do you just want to accuse me of hiding something?

You've said you think the justice system is very good. Are you now retracting that?

gone

Sorry that was a joke you know like

"I am really upset to miss school tomorrow"

"Well you are hiding it well"

Should have put a grin there

So have you managed to find any evidence to support your claim that a rape accusation is more damaging than accusations of other crime gone? Because I haven't.

However if anyone does manage to find any then please let me know

However, as to the tariffs for the crimes, it is possible that someone convicted of perverting the course of justice with a malicious accusation could potentially get a higher sentence than someone got for a rape conviction

Yes it is possible. I think lay people underestimate the significance of crimes like perverting the course of justice, contempt of court and perjury. The individual act might seem trivial but they are fundamental to why laws work.

gone

I am not retracting anything, i said that it was good and gives fair trials to the ACCUSED

Why arent you fussed about anonymity for other crimes?

Gone has said that she thinks people accused of child abuse should be granted anonymity.

People accused of other crime are fair game in her book though no matter how stigmatised and damaging being accused of said crime may be.

A rape allegation is clearly more damaging than a burglary allegation - why would you even need to think about that?!?

So you're being accused of rape or child abuse? Oh dear. Don't worry, we'll look out for you and protect you. We'll keep your identity hidden so these nasty accusations don't destroy your life.

On the other hand, you're being accused of murder/arson/assaulting the elderly/stealing from charities/animal abuse/GBH but quite frankly I don't care dear. I have no interest in protecting you because you're not being accused of the crime I deem worthy of protection. So I'm going to throw you to the wolves and let you be named and shamed regardless of what damage this may or may not do if you're innocent.

A rape allegation is clearly more damaging than a burglary allegation

You do realise that rape and burglary are not the only two crimes that exist, right?

Rape is not the only stigmatised crime.

So I'll ask you again. What evidence do you have that being accused of rape is more damaging and carries a bigger stigma than being accused of murder/child abuse/arson/assaulting the elderly/arson/GBH etc?

Yes I am aware that I said arson twice there

Personally I wouldn't be Against anonymity in a lot broader spectrum, but the stigma or rape is far higher, and as previously discussed evidence isn't always clear cut.

How strange, toad. I do care about how society treats people who are accused of other crimes. Don't you? Anonymity for other crimes (until found guilty) is worth exploring, in my view. Obviously there has to be a balance. But until found guilty, no punishment should begin, either by society or by the legal system.

No, rufus. You said it was a good justice system full-stop.

I probably should have realised that was a joke. Sorry.

It was just an example - quite clearly

On a slightly unrelated note, rape apologists just love comparing rape to theft don't they?

Sometimes they take it one step further and compare false rape accusations to false accusations of theft.

Because rape and theft are just so similar aren't they?

Oh, and you highlight the first sentence and totally disregard the second, because why?