What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

"I also think that being a woman or a man is very much an individual as well as a collective thing"

It isn't, you know!

Agree Bertrand. As women, our experiences, our sense of ourselves in relation to others of our sex, our feelings of comfort in our skins, will all vary. This is personality. Womanhood is a fixed thing, personality can vary.

Agree, woman is a fixed thing. The moment you add on to the definition of an adult female human you begin to make oppressive stereotypes.

If being a woman is a fixed thing, at what age does a female human become a woman?

"If being a woman is a fixed thing, at what age does a female human become a woman?"

Whenever you consider her to be an adult.

"'what makes a woman?' question"

Of course the question is loaded to elicit a vague and sentimental answer.

The question that OP needs (if not wants) is "What is a woman?".

And the answer is simple: Adult human female.

Fascicle

A human female is born a girl and becomes a woman.

Definitions of adult vary by culture; voting age, drinking age, marriageable age etc. Those are all "legal" constructs of adulthood, though, not womanhood.

Personally, I wouldn't refer to anyone over 18 as a girl.

From a biological perspective, a juvenile becomes an adult when the body stops growing.

Everyone accepts that adult and juvenile refer fundamentally to physical states, with cultural understanding that the latter is less competent and experienced, and we set particular ages as an approximation of when people move from one to another.

And we allow for a muddled area between girl and woman, as growing up is a messy thing, and that's perfectly normal.

Also it is exactly the same for boys to men.

That's true throughout all of adulthood.

My mum is both physically and psychologically more mature than me. There are different expectations of us.

Now I'm humming "end of the road" by boyz II men

The OP did actually specify she meant what is a woman not what makes a woman.

Hermoine Me too!

almondpudding
The OP did actually specify she meant what is a woman not what makes a woman.

Not seen that – can you quote what she said?

Clearly biology alone does not provide all the answers to the OP's question (or the 'what is a woman?' question) since, aside from individual variation, the age at which females are considered/treated as women, from societal points of view, can vary by a few years. In the UK, the average age for starting periods is 12. What might be considered as a biological marker for womanhood is not consistent with the legal minimum age for sex or the norms for reproduction.

There are many other contexts where 'woman' is much more than a simple biological definition or an immutable fact. Biology and experiences can be, but are not always, linked. The relationship between experiences and biology vary between individuals and between societies. Furthermore, a woman's experiences in relation to her biology cannot be neatly explained solely in terms of gender roles and expectations.

I never suggested starting periods was a biological marker for womanhood. so I have no idea why you are expecting me to respond to such a bizarre straw man argument.

The OP said she was asked what is a woman and was throwing the question open to the floor in her opening post.

The age when a girl becomes a woman may vary from culture to culture, but the biological markers for being female (whether girl or woman) are pretty clear.

Empress, changing from being a girl to being a woman involves going through a process. Different cultures mark different parts of that process as particularly significant, but are all trying to refer to something that exists independently of cultural inventions - that some things are older than other things, and that the bodies of juveniles eventually develop into an adult form.

It's easier to distinguish between female and male because there isn't a process where one turns gradually into the other.

fascicle if you think there's anything complex about defining what a woman is, you need to redo GCSE biology

I agree, Almond.

Yes, I thought we were agreeing!

Good

Jack was tweeting about being in major financial shit last time I looked so we've probably dropped off her agenda for now.

Well she's back to ranting tweeting about Katie Hopkins and transphobia now, so clearly able to engage but just choosing not to :)

I wouldn't be surprised if she asks MN to delete both of the threads she's posted.

almondpudding
I never suggested starting periods was a biological marker for womanhood. so I have no idea why you are expecting me to respond to such a bizarre straw man argument.

Not a straw man argument, almond, and not directed at you. I was providing one example where biology and society might be at odds on the question.

The OP did actually specify she meant what is a woman not what makes a woman.

She wasn't replacing the original (and, I think, broader) question in the thread title, which she and others used again later on in the thread.

HermioneWeasley
fascicle if you think there's anything complex about defining what a woman is, you need to redo GCSE biology

The biological definition is a given. A more interesting, wider debate, would not be restricted to biological definitions.

That's what woman is though, a biological descriptor. Women are adult human females. Femininity is something altogether, a bunch of stereotypes that often have very little to do with who women actually are. Transwomen probably perform femininity much more than women do.

A more interesting, wider debate, would not be restricted to biological definitions.
That just reads to me like you want to start a pseudo intellectual, waffly bollocks chat about something that actually is very straightforward. I for one would describe it as frustrating and possibly annoying and offensive rather than interesting
Mind you if you can talk about a non-biological definition of woman that doesn't involve essences or stereotypes and includes aspects that define both women and transwomen but exclude men and trans men I'm all ears. I have never seen one so I think it's impossible. Good luck!